Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[ShadowArxxy]

Yeah, I guess? Haven't watched TRoS.

The First Order / Final Order division is super dumb, and one of the best changes Templin made in his video was combining them.

I thought the division did make a degree of sense in the larger view of the galaxy, although I do agree that it did tangle up in terms of story.

First Order = hardline Imperial holdouts who refused the peace treaty and fled into the Outer Rim. Essentially independent "neo-Imperials" with limited numbers but next-generation gear.

Final Order = Palpatine's secret reserves, with advanced Imperial-era equipment.

 

[LindyAF]

First Order = hardline Imperial holdouts who refused the peace treaty and fled into the Outer Rim. Essentially independent "neo-Imperials" with limited numbers but next-generation gear.

Final Order = Palpatine's secret reserves, with advanced Imperial-era equipment.

This might have made sense, except that IIRC Palpatine is running the First Order too by way of Snoke, and were part of Palpatine's "Contingency."

I'd probably feel differently if the First Order felt more differently, but as it is these are both Imperial-successor statesbased out of the Unknown Regions with advanced, next-gen versions of imperial gear being run by the same guy (except using an intermediary for one of them).

 

[CockyVampire67]

Also, Clone Troops would have made a lot more sense for the First Order to use but also for the Empire of the OT in general. Actually, wasn't it canon for a bit that Stormtroopers were Clones, just not Fett clones?

That would solve the questions of where the First Order gets its manpower rather than a janissary schema (which seems insane for an organization in the First Order's position pre TFA).

I don't know about how first order got so powerful in movies (i mean it's obviously palpatines money, you'd think he woud be more aware of his expenses. then again, disney obviously needed another superweapon in movies no matter how it happens), but isn't there always a price factor between ordering a buch of clones or hiring brainwashed recruits? Or even raising them from zero? I remember that there was entire eposode in clone wars where they talked about how potentially another clone army order could bankrupt republic due to loans from banks. Can't imagine that it's would be cheaper or easier for first order than it was for republic (it's also logical if republic monitoring all cloning planets in it's grasp for suspicious orders and stuff. if they actually contracted some planet from unknown regions for this, would have been much cooler though). I would be more sure if first order wasn't portrayed as powerhouse it was in movies. I wonder what could've happened if instead of building another death star they resorted to guerilla warfare, infiltration and terrorism, essentially copying republics approach in it's concept.

 

[Bassoe]

I remember that there was entire eposode in clone wars where they talked about how potentially another clone army order could bankrupt republic due to loans from banks.

 

[LindyAF]

I don't know about how first order got so powerful in movies (i mean it's obviously palpatines money, you'd think he woud be more aware of his expenses. then again, disney obviously needed another superweapon in movies no matter how it happens), but isn't there always a price factor between ordering a buch of clones or hiring brainwashed recruits? Or even raising them from zero?

So I think as it's described cash is not really going to be the limiting factor for the First Order. It's started by essentially a bunch of Imperial Moffs and upper officers who fuck off to the Unknown regions - and as we saw in The Mandalorian this sort of person was rich. Even if Imperial credits don't spend well anymore, they've probably got beskar or other precious metals. Palpatine is also secretly backing them, and he's probably got entire rooms of money, as are a number of major industries in Republic space - at least per wookiepedia, Sienar Fleet Systems and Kuat-Entralla Engineering (the leftovers of Kuat Drive Yards) were secretly backing them and supplying them with material. They are not cash strapped.

What they should be is manpower and industry strapped. And the First Order's way of getting their army is the most expensive in terms of manpower - in order to get more manpower in stormtroopers, they have to spend it raiding outlying systems and presumably occupying enough to go door to door. They also have to conceal this from the New Republic, which means they can't hit anywhere too big or too important. They also can't bank up for a big order of stormtroopers all at once, or get new stormtroopers on short notice if they need them.

Like, near as I can tell, the First Order was supposed to have taken over the galaxy. That means military occupation, at least in key areas. And their ground forces for doing this were their stormtroopers - so the ones they abducted 15-40 years ago, back when they had virtually no presence in the galaxy.

 

[Bear Ribs]

So I think as it's described cash is not really going to be the limiting factor for the First Order. It's started by essentially a bunch of Imperial Moffs and upper officers who fuck off to the Unknown regions - and as we saw in The Mandalorian this sort of person was rich. Even if Imperial credits don't spend well anymore, they've probably got beskar or other precious metals. Palpatine is also secretly backing them, and he's probably got entire rooms of money, as are a number of major industries in Republic space - at least per wookiepedia, Sienar Fleet Systems and Kuat-Entralla Engineering (the leftovers of Kuat Drive Yards) were secretly backing them and supplying them with material. They are not cash strapped.

What they should be is manpower and industry strapped. And the First Order's way of getting their army is the most expensive in terms of manpower - in order to get more manpower in stormtroopers, they have to spend it raiding outlying systems and presumably occupying enough to go door to door. They also have to conceal this from the New Republic, which means they can't hit anywhere too big or too important. They also can't bank up for a big order of stormtroopers all at once, or get new stormtroopers on short notice if they need them.

Like, near as I can tell, the First Order was supposed to have taken over the galaxy. That means military occupation, at least in key areas. And their ground forces for doing this were their stormtroopers - so the ones they abducted 15-40 years ago, back when they had virtually no presence in the galaxy.

So... they should be building a droid army?

 

[LindyAF]

So... they should be building a droid army?

Building or buying droids or clones, yeah.

 

[CockyVampire67]

Building or buying droids or clones, yeah.

Some kind of sith shadow droids? Or jedi killer model like HK

 

[LindyAF]

Some kind of sith shadow droids? Or jedi killer model like HK

I'm not really getting into the specifics here, it's about the fundamentals. The First Order is founded by the ousted Imperial elites, and backed by (or at least sold to by) major galactic industries. They also for the majority of their existence held no territory to recruit or draft from, are clearly not swaying volunteers to the stormtroopers (and don't really seem to be trying to do so in the movies). The janissary scheme is something that I don't think has ever worked and costs what they're short on (manpower).

Droids, Clones, they should be using something that lets them exchange money for more dudes to put boots on the ground and fills out their low level seamen (or spacemen?), which is quick, rapidly scalable, and can be arranged in a clandestine manner.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Hmm, as an alternative to that (mainly as a thought exercise) perhaps they take it in a different direction and go for force-multipliers. They can't afford losses, manpower is irreplaceable but their abundant technology is not, so there are no TIEs, every fighter is a GunStar-equivalent designed to take on entire squadrons of X-Wings and win all by itself, the only time you find any Storm Troopers who aren't piloting their personal massively-overbuilt walker on the battlefield is if they need to get inside a building intact and then they're equipped like a Mandalorian on steroids, and the huge battleships are automated to run on skeleton crews where a hundred able spacemen are able to keep a Star Destroyer going.

Thematically I don't think it really works for Star Wars villains, this would be a tough sell for me, but it is a very different direction than we've seen before.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Hmm, as an alternative to that (mainly as a thought exercise) perhaps they take it in a different direction and go for force-multipliers. They can't afford losses, manpower is irreplaceable but their abundant technology is not, so there are no TIEs, every fighter is a GunStar-equivalent designed to take on entire squadrons of X-Wings and win all by itself, the only time you find any Storm Troopers who aren't piloting their personal massively-overbuilt walker on the battlefield is if they need to get inside a building intact and then they're equipped like a Mandalorian on steroids, and the huge battleships are automated to run on skeleton crews where a hundred able spacemen are able to keep a Star Destroyer going.

Thematically I don't think it really works for Star Wars villains, this would be a tough sell for me, but it is a very different direction than we've seen before.

So basically, Space Marines from 40K with Titans, and heavy fighters.

 

[Bear Ribs]

So basically, Space Marines from 40K with Titans, and heavy fighters.

Eh, equipment-wise yes, but different thematically. Space Marines are super-soldiers but they don't really put a big emphasis on never leaving a man behind or reducing casualties to a minimum.

 

[CockyVampire67]

Eh, equipment-wise yes, but different thematically. Space Marines are super-soldiers but they don't really put a big emphasis on never leaving a man behind or reducing casualties to a minimum.

Isn't that in fact more common between them in this regard? I mean aside fanaticism it's unwise for space marines to let their veteran members of their chapter to die if the reason isn't worthy. First order soldier must be replaceable unlike space marines whose gene seed is limited. For stormtroopers must be similar only they're would be more easily sacrificed if it can achieve death of important republic figures since they're tools to palpatine and first orders officers. But both if faced with a choice woud sacrifice themselves/be sacrificed for the greater good.

Maybe it can work for first order if they have mixed squads, where droids are scouting and supporting human troops, or vice versa. Does anyone know why AT series wasn't automated? I can see imperials making most of their heavy ground vehicles to be run by droid intelligence, as a way to cover holes in manpower.

 

[Typhonis]

First Order reimagined and



The New Republic

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Do you think there is a way to make a spiritual succesor to Star Wars? like keep some of the asthetics and maybe even some of the themes of Star Wars while adressing some of the uglier parts of the setting? Like the force or the fact that all of the governments quickly grew to be horrible?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Certainly!

Curious, what do you specifically consider the 'uglier parts of the setting'?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Certainly!

Curious, what do you specifically consider the 'uglier parts of the setting'?

Namely the corruption of the Jedi and The Republic. It seems pretty clear to me that at this point neither of these things will ever be addressed and Disney will hit the reset button before they confront those aspects. I think I'd much rather see a jedi type order that simply do what they do out of loyalty to their society or simply because it's right not just something something religious dogma. I'd also like to see a republic (or heck even an empire) that's worth fighting for. People have tried to introduce me to 40K but that seems more absurdist grimdark than anything.

 

[LindyAF]

40K is very author dependent I think, but it's definitely very much not Star Wars and isn't really trying to be, I think (except insofar as it's a sci fi universe on the galactic scale).

I think the corruption of the Jedi and the Republic isn't really addressed because it was never really intentional, at least by Lucas and it's basically just that Lucas added in some parts he didn't really fully think through and then they got expanded a bit to add some grey (and occasionally authors would add grey because hey, dagger shaped spaceships and armor is a neat aesthetic) and then never stopped and it got out of hand.

 

[CockyVampire67]

Do you think there is a way to make a spiritual succesor to Star Wars? like keep some of the asthetics and maybe even some of the themes of Star Wars while adressing some of the uglier parts of the setting? Like the force or the fact that all of the governments quickly grew to be horrible?

Look up "Galaxy in Turmoil game"
This game was a fan reconstruction project for original battlefront 3, but when ea and disney stoned thie project, they attempted to make a game that was both different but at the same time resembled star wars aesthetic/feel in some way. It just shows that it's not that easy to accomplish. You can see that this ideal middle ground between visual aesthetics was reached in EU, at least in some places. But then it went downhill with plot, maybe because for corporations it's hard to please everyone. So far best we have seen is from fans. I would personally trade all star wars visions shorts for one tv series based on tie fighter short by otaking. Because ultimately he manages to add anime aesthetic and still keep it as star wars.

 

[Bassoe]

Do you think there is a way to make a spiritual successor to Star Wars?

Sure, Michael Moreci's Black Star Renegades.