Split off of discussion about Moldburg

Abhorsen

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You didn't read the article, so you don't know what he's talking about or why he thinks that way. I just summarized it. I'm of the opinion that the GDP is useless, straight-up.


There's so much laughable here, I don't even know where to begin.

First, there's not really any reason why we should assume a veil of ignorance. You'd have to argue for that point. Moldbug certainly doesn't believe in a veil of ignorance as part of his philosophy. He starts with an idea - Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - and looks at all the ways in which society has gotten worse at meeting those needs. And when it comes to the second level, safety? It's gone down by a lot. Keep in mind that Moldbug is a Jew living in San Francisco at that point in his life. Not exactly an ideal circumstance.

Second, if I were a black, I'd be rather unimpressed with the "progress" we've made in our society. As Moldbug said in one of his other essays:



One could make the argument that, from a veil of ignorance perspective, I'd rather be black in 1953 than black in 2013. Yeah, I'd lose some self-esteem, but is self-esteem worth being dead? I don't think so.

Third, and most laughably, you're unironically assuming the morality of the social justice warriors. You agree with them on what you want society to look like, you just think that what we have now is the ideal equal society, whereas they think we should go even further beyond. Neither Moldbug nor myself are part of your particular religion. Moldbug's an atheist who worships Thomas Carlyle, and I'm a Roman Catholic.

Perhaps we could start another thread about the "progress" made in the name of civil rights? I think that's deserving of its own thread.
Your honestly arguing you'd rather be black in the south in 1953 than black in the south in 2013? Really? in 1953, when Jim Crow was alive and well? When lynchings still happened? With extrajudicial police beatings of actually peaceful protestors? This may be your craziest take yet.

You don't seem to understand what the Veil of Ignorance is. It's a tool to weigh how good a society is. Basically, given a society, assume that you will inhabit a random person in the society, not your equivalent position to what you are now. So for an extreme example, don't argue for a monarchy assuming you will be the monarch. Assume that you have a 1/population size of being the monarch. When comparing which society is better overall, paying attention only to your own position is folly.

I know he used Maslow's Hierachy of Needs, I referenced it in my reply. Only that 1953 fails the second tier much more than 2013, because people weren't safe even from the government in 1953. Only white, straight people were.

I did skim the article for the AGDP, and what little time I spent on it came across as stupid. That same argument is the memetic call for money machines to go Brrrrr.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Your honestly arguing you'd rather be black in the south in 1953 than black in the south in 2013? Really? in 1953, when Jim Crow was alive and well? When lynchings still happened? With extrajudicial police beatings of actually peaceful protestors? This may be your craziest take yet.

You don't seem to understand what the Veil of Ignorance is. It's a tool to weigh how good a society is. Basically, given a society, assume that you will inhabit a random person in the society, not your equivalent position to what you are now. So for an extreme example, don't argue for a monarchy assuming you will be the monarch. Assume that you have a 1/population size of being the monarch.

I know he used Maslow's Hierachy of Needs, I referenced it in my reply. Only that 1953 fails the second tier much more than 2013, because people weren't safe even from the government in 1953. Only white, straight people were.

I did skim the article for the AGDP, and what little time I spent on it came across as stupid. That same argument is the memetic call for money machines to go Brrrrr.
You think that the government killed more black people in the 1950s than black criminals killed black people in the 2010s? That's rich.

Tell you what, start a new thread, if you like. Or DM me. Title it the "Veil of Ignorance and Progress". We'll argue about whether using the veil of ignorance to justify anything is justified while, at the same time, arguing that 1953 with iPhones is overall better than 2013.

While this is interesting, it is off-topic for this thread.
 

Abhorsen

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You think that the government killed more black people in the 1950s than black criminals killed black people in the 2010s? That's rich.

Tell you what, start a new thread, if you like. Or DM me. Title it the "Veil of Ignorance and Progress". We'll argue about whether using the veil of ignorance to justify anything is justified while, at the same time, arguing that 1953 with iPhones is overall better than 2013.

While this is interesting, it is off-topic for this thread.
This is a new thread?

Also, murder rates aren't really that different (see graph). The denial of rights in the 50's? Definitely real. The lack of freedom? Also real. The actual discrimination of the 50's versus the imagined discrimination of today? I'll take today any day of the week. Then on top of this, you have no USSR (which was much scarier than China is today).

homiciderate.PNG
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
I always have to shake my head at all the people who claim that the twentieth century wasn't a century of bloody murder and barbarism because they're usually guilty of statistical manipulation.

Let's get a bit of perspective, shall we?

First, if we're going to be looking at stats, let's look at my chart. Mine is better.


3-9-us-homicide-rate.jpg


So we had very low crime rates in the late 1800s, followed by a spike in crime at the turn of the century that reached its peak in the 1930s, went down slightly in 1950s, rose again in 1960s to peak in the 1970s and 1980s, and then fell down to 1950s levels in the 2000s. Notice how it's right after the most progressive eras of American history - the Progressive era at the turn of the century and the Civil Rights era of the 1960s - that you see the highest crime rates. Put a pin in that. We'll come back to it later.

Both of our stats claim that our homicide rates are on par with the homicide rates of the 1950s. But understand that these are numbers, and numbers have stories behind them. Does having the same homicide rate as 1950s mean having the same amount of violence per capita as the 1950s?

No, actually. There have been advancements in medicine that have decreased the number of violent deaths in spite of rising gun violence. Given that medical technology has been steadily advancing throughout this time, if the rate of attempted murders was the same in 1953 and 2013, we would expect a steady decrease in homicide rates over time because lot more people would be surviving their attempted murders. Instead, 2013 has the same homicide rate as 1953 in spite of having far more advanced medical technology.

So, we can rely on attempted murder stats, right?

Actually, no. We can't really because governments manipulate stats. We've seen this happen in New York, Denver, Milwaukee, Buffalo, Chicago, Nassau County, Washington D.C., all over the United Kingdom, and probably everywhere else too.

In 2002, the practice of “downgrading” rapes to misdemeanor trespassing “allowed a man to commit six sexual assaults in a Washington Heights neighborhood.” An investigation by the NYPD in 2010 found that a single precinct had “improperly reported” the following: “a Chinese-food delivery man robbed and beaten bloody, a man robbed at gunpoint, a cab driver robbed at gunpoint, a woman assaulted and beaten black and blue, a woman beaten by her spouse, and a woman burgled by men who forced their way into her apartment.” In 2011, the New York Times found over a hundred felonies that had been downgraded to misdemeanors or simply ignored, including an attempted rape, a double shooting of teenage girls in the Bronx, the theft of an iPhone and an iPad, a nearly fatal choking, and a razor-wielding robber. In 2013, “police paperwork for lost property ‘described a complainant who “lost property” following an assault by multiple individuals.’”

In short, “assault becomes harassment, robbery becomes grand larceny, grand larceny becomes petit larceny, burglary becomes criminal trespass” — and the mayor’s approval rating goes up. Meanwhile, “the number of assault victims taken to emergency rooms nearly doubled” from 1999 to 2006.

This is totally the same as 1953, I'm sure. I'm also completely positive that the Ferguson Effect has been utterly benign too!

In any case, given that you actually have not seen Moldbug's argument that 1953 is objectively better than 2013, here it is:

Picture the Earth—our beautiful, blue, spinning globe. Take all the habitable land area and color it white—as a neutral background for our thought experiment.

Now, select the subset of this beautiful planet on which a sober, sensible, civilized person, such as Sam Altman, would consider it prudent and safe to wander, “on foot and alone,” carrying his iPad, at night. Leave that part white. Color the other part brown. Then, from the brown subset, select the further subset in which Sam Altman, carrying his iPad, would not consider it prudent and safe to wander in the daytime. Color that part black. (Why can’t Google Maps do this?)

Then do the same for Sam Altman’s grandfather, in 1950, with his portable Smith-Corona. Then, repeat the exercise for 1900. (Part of the reason this is such a useful mental exercise, and unfortunately such a difficult one, is that it requires you to actually know what the world was like in 1950 or 1900. If your way of getting this information starts with statistical tables, ur doin it rong. There are these things called “books” which will help you out.)

If you perform this exercise accurately, or at least if you get the same results as me, you’ll see a 20C quite indistinguishable from Stage III melanoma. And this progress continues, to rousing applause and general self-congratulation, right up into our own dear official NYT-approved 2013. Hey, been to Egypt lately? What’s that Google guy up to these days? Is he still tweeting?



So, let's talk about this statement.

The denial of rights in the 50's? Definitely real. The lack of freedom? Also real. The actual discrimination of the 50's versus the imagined discrimination of today? I'll take today any day of the week. Then on top of this, you have no USSR (which was much scarier than China is today).

I think it comes from an alien mindset from that of myself and Moldbug. Neither of us think that this "denial of rights" stuff is real. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, I don't conceptualize rights the same way a liberal does, and Moldbug doesn't even believe in human rights. Neither of us would believe that a "rights violation" occurs because of discrimination per se.

The fact of the matter is that African-Americans are more prone to criminality than their white counterparts. If you don't believe me, then take a look at this (scroll down to the section on blacks, read the studies, and weep). Seeing this and comparing it to how primary sources described Africans and African-Americans, we can conclude that this was the general perception of Africans at the time, and that this perception was mostly based on reality. It stands to reason that European-Americans who lived in areas with a lot of African-Americans wanted protection from this criminality. Racists used this to justify their segregationist policies.

So you don't like the policies. Fine, I don't particularly like them either. But did the Civil Rights Movement address the underlying causes of support for segregation - the violent crimes? No. Instead, they advocated for policies supported by literal socialists like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Said policies made things so much worse! Forced integration? Affirmative action? Criminal justice "reform"? None of these helped solve the problems and only exacerbated them. Little wonder that white flight is such a phenomenon today.

So, the question then becomes: what's a worse human rights violation? Black crime or segregation?

The answer of the anti-racist progressive would say "segregation." Of course, said anti-racist progressive would also claim that discriminating against Chinese people who might have the virus is racist too. Their worldview is pretty alien to mine. But I have a feeling it might be kind of a pickle for you.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The fact that he thinks 1953 is better than 2013, factoring out technology, is an actual example of privilege. For a straight, white, male, (can't believe I'm saying that unironically) 1953 is great. Now those don't matter. To examine this, we should use Kant's Veil of Ignorance, so he doesn't know what his race, sex, or sexuality will be in either society. There is a chance he ends up black in the Jim Crow South, a gay man being arrested for dancing, or a woman who has no real choice but to be a housewife (the problem there is the lack of choice, not the housewife part). Suddenly, 1953 doesn't look so great compared to 2013.

Thomas Sowell would disagree about a fair bit of what you're mentioning here:

(Video is about nine and a half minutes, and covers negative consequences for living conditions and family integrity, between 1960 and ~2015)

You seem to be falling prey to more liberal lies about the past.

(Moved by request.)
 

Abhorsen

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Integration is a good thing. The lack of integration was a great evil.
Thomas Sowell would disagree about a fair bit of what you're mentioning here:

(Video is about nine and a half minutes, and covers negative consequences for living conditions and family integrity, between 1960 and ~2015)

You seem to be falling prey to more liberal lies about the past.

(Moved by request.)

I totally agree about the welfare state being horrible, and did damage for decades. But by 2013, New York is much safer than it was in the bad times he talks about (30 years post welfare state is around the 90s to 2000s, if we are measuring by the great society). In addition, what Sowell is talking about is in the North, so he didn't have to deal with explicit segregation. But I specified Black in the south for a reason, having to deal with Jim Crow. Finally, Sowell talks about 100 years after slavery. This would be about 1966, which would, for black people, beat out 2013, as it is post civil rights laws and rulings that invalidated Jim Crow laws.

Also, even in comparing 1966 to 2013, you would still have to deal with how gay people were treated, including literal psychological torture of children in some cases, particularly California, and being arrested for dancing, the fact that they lead degenerate life styles because of being exiled from normality, etc. I think one of the great achievements of LGBT culture was changing from being a celebration of hedonism to centering more on family. This process is by no means completed, and isn't even half done, but it is definitely happening. If you compare what gay culture was in the 1960s to what it is now, it is miles less degenerate. And my hypothesis was that most of the degeneracy came from shame. Basically, if you get someone to believe that a having sex all the time with arbitrary partners is just as sinful as a monogamous, long term relationship, guess what men will choose.

The answer of the anti-racist progressive would say "segregation." Of course, said anti-racist progressive would also claim that discriminating against Chinese people who might have the virus is racist too. Their worldview is pretty alien to mine. But I have a feeling it might be kind of a pickle for you.
You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between real racism, and pretend racism. The fact that you can't differentiate between the two boggles the mind. That or this is the most obvious strawman I have ever seen.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
See, Abhorsen, this is what is so weird. You make statements like this

Integration is a good thing. The lack of integration was a great evil.

and then you don't justify them. Am I suppose to accept this as a matter of faith?

You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between real racism, and pretend racism. The fact that you can't differentiate between the two boggles the mind. That or this is the most obvious strawman I have ever seen.
Similarly, this is also a nonsensical statement to me. This is a strawman... of what, exactly? You never say, and given that you don't say, I doubt that you know. So let me try and make clear what my point was.

My point with that particular paragraph was to show that discrimination on the basis of race is not, in itself, an evil. If Chinese people are more likely to have the Chinese virus and black people have higher rates of criminality on average, then it's actually rational for people to discriminate against them.

But to answer your question on "racism," I don't actually believe there's a difference between "real racism" and "pretend racism" because racism is a magical word. Saying something is "racist" doesn't convey to me anything other than "I think that's evil." Well, good for you I suppose, but, as I stated earlier, I don't look at human rights or ethics in the same way you do. Since you don't seem to be too keen on addressing whether or not violent crime was worse in 1953 or 2013, let's put a pin in that and talk about ethics.

For this, I think we should start with these questions: Why is "integration" a "good thing"? Why is "lack of integration" a "great evil"? And what's the difference between "real racism" and "fake racism"?
 

Abhorsen

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and then you don't justify them. Am I suppose to accept this as a matter of faith?
Segregation, especially forced segregation (given that I was talking about Jim Crow, this is what I was talking about) is clearly racist. And racism does have an actual meaning, not just the magical word liberals use it as. It means that there was an antagonism against black people based solely on their skin color, not treating them as an individual.

My point with that particular paragraph was to show that discrimination on the basis of race is not, in itself, an evil. If Chinese people are more likely to have the Chinese virus and black people have higher rates of criminality on average, then it's actually rational for people to discriminate against them.
I'm talking about Jim Crow Laws. These laws weren't about black people being more likely to offend, they were about enforcing a system where Government stopped black people from advancing and integrating with society as a whole. They were rooted in a hatred of black people. I'm not sure how to explain this any clearer to you. Jim Crow laws were motivated by hatred of black people, not by any sort of rational explanation. That's evil. I'm not sure why you are defending these laws.

As for why this is
Similarly, this is also a nonsensical statement to me. This is a strawman... of what, exactly? You never say, and given that you don't say, I doubt that you know. So let me try and make clear what my point was.
Of my position. You said this:
The answer of the anti-racist progressive would say "segregation." Of course, said anti-racist progressive would also claim that discriminating against Chinese people who might have the virus is racist too. Their worldview is pretty alien to mine. But I have a feeling it might be kind of a pickle for you.
You compare choosing segregation as the greater evil to not letting chinese people in with a virus. Note that one of these two policies has a reason other than blanket hatred behind it, and it isn't the first one. You strawmanned by claiming that someone believing A implies believing B, then debunking B to prove A wrong. Here, B (discriminating against chinese people is not okay, even if it's because of the coronavirus) is the weak argument you proposed that you then struck down.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
@Abhorsen, you aren't making very good arguments here.

You say things like this.

Segregation, especially forced segregation (given that I was talking about Jim Crow, this is what I was talking about) is clearly racist. And racism does have an actual meaning, not just the magical word liberals use it as. It means that there was an antagonism against black people based solely on their skin color, not treating them as an individual.
I'm talking about Jim Crow Laws. These laws weren't about black people being more likely to offend, they were about enforcing a system where Government stopped black people from advancing and integrating with society as a whole. They were rooted in a hatred of black people. I'm not sure how to explain this any clearer to you. Jim Crow laws were motivated by hatred of black people, not by any sort of rational explanation. That's evil. I'm not sure why you are defending these laws.

These are not facts. These are articles of faith in your political myth. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in this religion. Mythology is just mythology.

On the definition of racism: there's no such thing as an actual meaning to words. Words are just tools used to communicate. If you claim that "racism" means "hatred of another race," then I'll take that to be your definition from now on. But when I hear the word "racist" thrown around, my default assumption is to just to assume that the other person is trying to play some language game. You can blame the Left and its habit of calling everything racist for that one.

On the purpose of segregation: I'll just point out that 1) you have no idea why Jim Crow laws were passed or what the intentions of the lawmakers were in making those laws. This line is simply a narrative you've been fed. Have you actually seen an argument made for segregation by an honest-to-God segregationist? 2) Even if the intentions of the lawmakers were pure, irrational hatred of black people, my claim did not concern the intentions of the lawmakers. Read it again:
The fact of the matter is that African-Americans are more prone to criminality than their white counterparts. If you don't believe me, then take a look at this (scroll down to the section on blacks, read the studies, and weep). Seeing this and comparing it to how primary sources described Africans and African-Americans, we can conclude that this was the general perception of Africans at the time, and that this perception was mostly based on reality. It stands to reason that European-Americans who lived in areas with a lot of African-Americans wanted protection from this criminality. Racists used this to justify their segregationist policies.
Notice, I didn't say I was defending those laws (you can get that out of your head). I was saying that people in that time period had rational reasons to support said laws. And in response to said reasons, you just mashed the words "hatred" on your keyboard, as if that was an argument. I'm not seeing any justifications for your statements.

You compare choosing segregation as the greater evil to not letting chinese people in with a virus. Note that one of these two policies has a reason other than blanket hatred behind it, and it isn't the first one. You strawmanned by claiming that someone believing A implies believing B, then debunking B to prove A wrong. Here, B (discriminating against chinese people is not okay, even if it's because of the coronavirus) is the weak argument you proposed that you then struck down.
I'm not even sure what you've written here. Could you rewrite this in a way I could understand. I mean, it looks like you're accusing me of strawmanning someone, but for the life of me, I can't understand whom you're accusing me of strawmanning.

My entire point with bringing up the Chinese Coronavirus is to point to an example of rational racial discrimination. People have a rational reason to discriminate against Chinese people (because the virus originated in China). Similarly, people have a rational reason to discriminate against black people (because they are, on average, more likely to commit some criminal act).

Now, this dilemma has no problem for my worldview. I don't believe segregation or discrimination are bad things in themselves, so long as there is a good reason for them. But you said:

Integration is a good thing. The lack of integration was a great evil.
This statement implies that discrimination is just plain evil, no matter what. Even in the case of the Chinese coronavirus. This is why I asked you to justify that statement previously. But you didn't justify that statement at all.

Am I not doing a good job of getting across my ideas to you? What do you not understand?
 

Cherico

Well-known member
I think we are ignoring the thing that caused the problem in the first place.

And that's the destruction of the black family, I looked at the stats remove the children of single mothers and the black crime rate is either the same or lower then the white one. The reason for this explosion of single parent homes is because of the 'great' society when social workers went around kicking fathers out of their homes. Stowel mentioned this fact lots of people have. If you want to fix the problem you have to get rid of welfare and you have to restore the rights of black fathers and give them back the place in society that was stolen from them.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
I think we are ignoring the thing that caused the problem in the first place.

And that's the destruction of the black family, I looked at the stats remove the children of single mothers and the black crime rate is either the same or lower then the white one. The reason for this explosion of single parent homes is because of the 'great' society when social workers went around kicking fathers out of their homes. Stowel mentioned this fact lots of people have. If you want to fix the problem you have to get rid of welfare and you have to restore the rights of black fathers and give them back the place in society that was stolen from them.

I certainly believe that the factors Sowell pointed out did push black communities over the edge. But reports of black misbehavior have gone back a long, long time. Furthermore, there is significant evidence that their increased criminality is linked to their average lower IQs and average higher testosterone levels, for the same reason men are more likely to commit violent crime. Still, before the factors Sowell mentioned, there were thriving black business areas, and they were better able to police their own communities, at least within the West.

If you want Exhibit A of the kind of behavior black Africans were derided for by the more politically incorrect types of the past, back before people were too scared of racism to criticize them, you can check out this video.

 

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