History Split off derail: Discussion of Nazism vs Communism

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
But it wasn't. Marx didn't believe that, for one. He though communism would be a new thing (he literally wrote a history method as an example).
Marx literally described hunter-gatherer societies as "primitive Communism".
They're a subset. Fascism means both the Italians under Mussolini, and blood and soil Autacracies, usually European, with a fair bit of command economies and stated hostility to communism.
No, it is not.

There are many things in which they are similar, true, but they are not the same. For one, Fascism focuses primarily on state and state authority; for Nazism, state is merely an extension of race.
 

Poe

Well-known member
By that logic, Communists were also traditionalists. Communism itself is based on belief in perennial wisdom and that western civilization was corrupted from said wisdom; Communists basically wanted a return to idealized prehistoric society.

So no, what you are saying still doesn't make sense.
What? No, communists do not believe anything of the sort and definitely don't believe we're returning to some prehistoric society, communism is literally the opposite of that and believes history is marching towards utopia. This is a childish retort at best with zero substance, you basically just said "nu-uh you're dumb." Do better

So no, what you are saying still doesn't make sense.
What I said is just the commonly accepted truth, it not making sense to you is your problem
And Nazis are not Fascists. Those are two different things.
Even if this was true (it isn't) both are inspired by traditionalist philosophies.

No, it is not.

There are many things in which they are similar, true, but they are not the same. For one, Fascism focuses primarily on state and state authority; for Nazism, state is merely an extension of race.
China and the USSR are not the same, but both are marxist. This argument is ridiculous and one only fascists attempt to make.

Marx literally described hunter-gatherer societies as "primitive Communism".
Irrelevant because

A) His communism is industrial in nature and modern in scale, while he's merely making an observation of how those societies lacked currency
B) We're talking about the traditionalist belief in perennial wisdom, which has almost nothing to do with economic modes of production. Marx didn't believe the dictatorship of the proletariat was divine in nature and how societies had always been organized, and that deviation from it was some great evil and temporary. By his own words it was something entirely new.
 
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Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
What? No, communists do not believe anything of the sort and definitely don't believe we're returning to some prehistoric society, communism is literally the opposite of that and believes history is marching towards utopia. This is a childish retort at best with zero substance, you basically just said "nu-uh you're dumb." Do better
Please at least read some Communist works before talking about Communism, because otherwise this makes no sense.

Or, you know, just do a five-second Google search. That works as well.

Even if this was true (it isn't) both are inspired by traditionalist philosophies.
Not even close. They have some traditionalist elements, but also many progressive socialist (even Communist) ones.

They are both a mix of two sides of the spectrum. As I said, extremist ideology of the center.
China and the USSR are not the same, but both are marxist. This argument is ridiculous and one only fascists attempt to make.
Stop being a dumbass.

China and USSR both (ostensibly) followed the same ideologies. Fascism and Nazism were, from the start, different ideologies, for all their similarities.
 
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Poe

Well-known member
Please at least read some Communist works before talking about Communism, because otherwise this makes no sense.
What point are you trying to make here? This is not a response to anything I've said and seems to just be an attempt to paint yourself as well read

Not even close. They have some traditionalist elements, but also many progressive socialist (even Communist) ones.
Fascism and nazism have zero progressive or communist elements. They are the antithesis of both of those things by definition.

Fascism and Nazism were, from the start, different ideologies, for all their similarities.
This just isn't true at all, Nazism is a form of fascism and you reeing about that not being the case doesn't change that.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
What point are you trying to make here? This is not a response to anything I've said and seems to just be an attempt to paint yourself as well read
It is literally a response to your post. You said that Communists
definitely don't believe we're returning to some prehistoric society, communism is literally the opposite of that and believes history is marching towards utopia
If you had ready literally any of the original Communist writings you will have known that your statement is just wrong. Communism is entirely based around reconstructing idealized prehistoric society as a way of building idealized futuristic society.
Fascism and nazism have zero progressive or communist elements. They are the antithesis of both of those things by definition.
Yeah, LOL. Repeating things doesn't make them true.

To quote my response to Abhorsen:
Let's see the Communist Manifesto:
  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    1. Nobody is allowed to own any land – all land will be owned by the State. Anyone who wants to use the land will have to pay a rent in order to use it – which is what has happened now with the tax on land.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    1. People who earn more will pay progressively more tax. What this does is disincentivize people from earning more, ensuring that there is always a wide class of the State-dependent proletariat. The end goal is the destruction of the middle class.
  3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    1. You will own nothing and you will be happy. This point would make it impossible to pass one's own property onto children and grandchildren, as everything will belong to the State.
  4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    1. Nobody is allowed to oppose the Government by any means, nor to leave it should the oppression become too great. Anyone attempting to do so will have his property taken by the State.
  5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    1. Nobody is allowed to do business without permission from the Government, nor to create inheritance without permission of the Government. This would be done by a creation of a national central bank with a central State fiat currency and the State monopoly. This is literally the Fascist so-called "state capitalism".
  6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    1. Nobody is allowed to communicate with each other without permission by the State. This is clearly intended to prevent any resistance against the State.
  7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    1. All instruments of production are to be owned by the State, and State will organize projects according to the centrally-imposed plans made by the Government.
  8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    1. Individual is to be impressed into the State-managed industrial army (good example of such an organization is Organization Todt). Individual has no right to his own being and his freedom; everything he is belongs to the State.
  9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
    1. There can be no escape from the State. Everyone is to become a slave of the State, with no distinction allowed. This point calls for central planning of agriculture and industries as well as control over the populace.
  10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
    1. Children will be brainwashed in the State-run schools to serve as perfect little foot soldiers for the Glorious Revolution.
Now compare this to Hitler's 25 Points:

  1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.
  2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
  3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
  4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
  5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
  6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, officeholding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
  7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
  8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
  9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
  10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
  11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
  12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
  13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
  14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
  15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
  16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
  17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
  18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
  19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
  20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
  21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
  22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
  23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that a: All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race b: Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language c: Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
  24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.
  25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration

So:
- Nazi Point 7 is basically a combination of Communist Points 7 and 8
- Nazi Point 10 is Communist Point 8
- Nazi Point 11 is Communist Point 8
- Nazi Point 13 is Communist Point 7
- Nazi Point 17 is Communist Point 1 and 3
- Nazi Point 20 is Communist Point 10
- Nazi Point 21 is Communist Point 10
- Nazi Point 25 covers Communist Points 4, 5, 6 and7

And these are only things that are actually 1-for-1. If you consider context and what these things will lead to, they are even more similar.
Your "definition" actually ignores everything Nazis had said, written and done historically.

Nazism and Fascism are only "antithesis" of Communist or progressive elements because Communists had written history to present them as such. If you actually study what Nazis and Fascists had historically believed, a completely different picture emerges.
This just isn't true at all, Nazism is a form of fascism and you reeing about that not being the case doesn't change that.
No, it isn't. That is nothing but a lie created by Communists to paint themselves as somehow fundamentally distinct from other two major socialist ideologies of the time.
 
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Poe

Well-known member
It is literally a response to your post. You said that Communists

If you had ready literally any of the original Communist writings you will have known that your statement is just wrong. Communism is entirely based around reconstructing idealized prehistoric society as a way of building idealized futuristic society.
No it isn't a response. This entire "prehistoric communism" is a strawman attempting to hide the fact that you don't have a clue what "perennial wisdom" means and are thus projecting a perceived lack of knowledge around the subject. As I said above, traditionalist philosophy is about spirituality and "as above, so below" not about materialist modes of production.

Nazism and Fascism are only "antithesis" of Communist or progressive elements because Communists had written history to present them as such. If you actually study what Nazis and Fascists had historically believed, a completely different picture emerges.
Fascism and Nazism are state corporate economies which are, in fact, the opposite of what socialism preaches (communal ownership.) Both also were at extreme odds with socialism to the point of suppressing them violently within their countries.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
No it isn't a response. This entire "prehistoric communism" is a strawman attempting to hide the fact that you don't have a clue what "perennial wisdom" means and are thus projecting a perceived lack of knowledge around the subject. As I said above, traditionalist philosophy is about spirituality and "as above, so below" not about materialist modes of production.
I know what perennial wisdom means, and I am well aware of the bolded. Fact still remains that your argument that "Nazis believe in perennial wisdom therefore they are reactionaries" is nonsense, because as I pointed out, Communists also were trying to create what they saw as a traditionalist society based on perennial wisdom.

Fact that neither Nazi nor Communist ideas of traditionalist society had any connection to actual tradition of societies they were trying to implement their ideas in was not an obstacle to either.
Fascism and Nazism are state corporate economies which are, in fact, the opposite of what socialism preaches (communal ownership.) Both also were at extreme odds with socialism to the point of suppressing them violently within their countries.
That is just BS.

First, "corporatism" that Fascism and Nazism preach has absolutely nothing to do with corporations in capitalist sense. Rather, corporations in Fascism are a way of organizing society under governmental control. They are more similar to Soviet collectives than they are to capitalist corporations. Fascist corporations are in fact a form of state control over the economy.

Second, Communists also suppressed other socialists within their countries - and not just their countries either. I believe I have mentioned how during the Spanish Civil War, Communists were more interested in murdering other Republicans that were competition for power than they were in murdering actual fascists. Josip Broz Tito was a leader of liquidators in the Spanish Civil War, and he murdered more "Trockists" and "anarchists" than he did fascists.
 

ATP

Well-known member
@Aldarion ,i once read book about spanish Faalanga/forget both author and title,as usual/ , and according th that,Falanga was created by dude who initially liked Srain,Hitler and Mussolini,then rejected first Sralin,then Hitler, and,when Duce for him was still mostly OK,he decided that he could made better system,and created Falanga.

As kind of better fascism.Dunno,if it is true,or not.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
@Aldarion ,i once read book about spanish Faalanga/forget both author and title,as usual/ , and according th that,Falanga was created by dude who initially liked Srain,Hitler and Mussolini,then rejected first Sralin,then Hitler, and,when Duce for him was still mostly OK,he decided that he could made better system,and created Falanga.

As kind of better fascism.Dunno,if it is true,or not.
Franco purged the Falangists pretty hardcore after the civil war, so they were pretty irrelevant to his regime
 

ATP

Well-known member
Franco purged the Falangists pretty hardcore after the civil war, so they were pretty irrelevant to his regime
And send as volunteers to die on Eastern front during WW2.For good reason - they really planned putch to take power,and even tried it in 1942,but ,as far as i knew,it turned into comedy.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
I hate commies more.

If I lived in a world where neonazis had infiltrated all of the powerful institutions in society from government, to education, to media, to finance, to big tech and they were using that influence to destroy Western civilization, undermine families, encourage degeneracy, and oppress dissents - then I may well hate Nazis more. I don’t live in that world though. I live in a world where a particularly vicious variation of Neomarxists are a threat so I reserve my hatred for them.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I hate commies more.

If I lived in a world where neonazis had infiltrated all of the powerful institutions in society from government, to education, to media, to finance, to big tech and they were using that influence to destroy Western civilization, undermine families, encourage degeneracy, and oppress dissents - then I may well hate Nazis more. I don’t live in that world though. I live in a world where a particularly vicious variation of Neomarxists are a threat so I reserve my hatred for them.
And rightly so.Commies not only are still danger,but they were worst even when germans was superpower.
Becouse germans,at least,honestly said that they want us,polish subhumans,dead.
Soviets killed us,too - but as liberators.....for our own good,of course.
 

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