ASOIAF/GOT Ramsay & Roose both died to a freak hunting accident in the woods?

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Both deaths are the result of the following: a mysterious bipedal invisible lizard that can cut apart large animals with its claws and doesn’t eat them

Reference to a show I love aside

How do things go when all that is known to remain of House Bolton is gone?

I’m assuming that Roose and Ramsay somehow aren’t that fertile or their occasional pregnancies are the result of stuff that eventually leads to disaster and that maybe why Roose seems to be an only child

And if they had any cousins, they aren’t using the Bolton name at present....and they may not even have the Bolton look and may even freak out when they inherit the Dreadfort and see the secret collection of human skins and decide to burn it all

Either way, presume this happens a year before A Game of Thrones

The inivisible supernatural predator from Sothoryos is just a plot device
 
Both deaths are the result of the following: a mysterious bipedal invisible lizard that can cut apart large animals with its claws and doesn’t eat them

Reference to a show I love aside

How do things go when all that is known to remain of House Bolton is gone?

I’m assuming that Roose and Ramsay somehow aren’t that fertile or their occasional pregnancies are the result of stuff that eventually leads to disaster and that maybe why Roose seems to be an only child

And if they had any cousins, they aren’t using the Bolton name at present....and they may not even have the Bolton look and may even freak out when they inherit the Dreadfort and see the secret collection of human skins and decide to burn it all

Either way, presume this happens a year before A Game of Thrones

The inivisible supernatural predator from Sothoryos is just a plot device

One predator could not get both.
You must made more of them,and it would be unplausible,or ...use Sothorys illness.And kill lot of people in Bolton lands,till it stop.

How it change canon ? No Red Wedding,Freys was too cowardly to act alone.Winterfall saved by normal northerns.Who would deal with raiders on their own,without Robb help.
He would probably keep winning battles till Dany come.If he welcomed wildlings with giants to North/there would be place for them in Bolton lands/ ,he could even win.Could you imagine effect of 200 giants in proper armours on battlefield ?
 
[P]resume this happens a year before A Game of Thrones

Domestic Bolton is still alive so it passes to him. He died about six months before the events.

He's supposed to be normal, so he works on finding a wife and getting a family started ASAP because otherwise the Dreadfort lands escheat to Ned. Who in turn probably grants them to Jon to start a cadet branch.

Beyond that, no Red Wedding, no offing rivals in the battle against Tywin Lannister (that is, setting them up to be killed), no 'deaths' of Bran and Rickon. In other words, even with other disasters still occurring per act of author, it's not enough to bring down House Stark and the Lannisters find themselves fucked.
 
If this happens a years before the first book, then yeah: Domeric survives.

In the grand scheme of things, that will not make a huge difference for Robb's actual campaign. He was said to be a decent fellow, and a great rider with the makings of a tourney champion. If he lives, that's one more capable lord upon whose service Robb can rely, so that's a plus. But does that change the course of the war? Nah. So the huge outcome remains the obvious one: no Red Wedding. Also: the Hound returns Arya to her family, hoping to be rewarded. He might be, at that. Robb wants to kick the Lannisters to the curb, the Mountain is in the employ of the Lannisters, so a nice reward for the Hound plus a promise that the Mountain is his to kill would probably get him in Robb's service.

Later on, instead of taking Sansa to the Vale, Littlefinger will presumably seek to return her as well, while concealing all his previous back-stabbing. Both in order to angle for Cat's gratitude, and to get in with the winning side. (Because short of the Red Wedding, Robb is pretty thoroughly beating the Lannister forces.)


However, per the OP, the actual idea is that there are no Boltons left. So if we take the "one year before AGoT" indication as a mere estimate, and conclude that "five months before the book" (just after Domeric dies) is equally acceptable and indeed yields the intended outcome... then all the above still stands, but Ned can use the extinction of the Bolton line to secure a decent future for his bastard son. This is then enough to prevent Jon from going to the Wall, and puts Jon at Robb's side during the war. (Taking the place of Domeric in the scenario above.)

This obviously changes the whole plot in the far North, with potentially world-ending consequences. Without Jon, Mance's plan goes through as planned. (In fact, the bulk of it has already happened prior to the moment that the Red Wedding was set to occur.) Blackwater has also happened. Without Jon at the Wall, do Melissandre's visions tell her the same? That is: does she convince Stanning to go to the Wall and intercede? Or do her visions instead tell him to join forces with the Starks or something? (And if so: does he listen?)

Things start getting pretty unpredictable at this point. But let's assume that Stannis still goes to the Wall, and still manages to fuck up Mance's plan. Let's also assume that the Wildlings are clear enough in expressing their fear of the Others, and that Mellisandre urges Stannis to take it seriously. No Jon Snow means Stannis presumably gets the unused castles along the wall to station his men. So now he's King-at-the-Wall.

Meanwhile, the Ironborn still raids Winterfell, but no Boltons, so the North is a huge mess. Theon now has to double down on his shitty choices, but we may assume he still doesn't kill Bran and Rickon.

I assume that, faced with the Lannisters and winning, Robb figures he can keep going down South, and then turn around to reclaim the North. Stopping the campaign to avenge his (supposedly dead) brothers would be a really stupid call, strategically. The Ironborn have no real hopes to hold Winterfell against him, so he can retake that whenever he wants. But his chance to beat the Lannisters is now. Presumably, he continues winning battles. Once Sansa is returned to him, the Lannisters have no hostages. By this point, there is little doubt that the Vale is, if not actively with Robb, at least not with the Lannisters. And Dorne hates them anyway. So it's the Lannisters and the Reach versus all the neighbours.

I sort of doubt whether Robb wants to conquer everything. Pushing on would be great from a "yay, vengeance" campaign, but no way most of his lords are going to be happy about that kind of thing. Plus, Joffrey and Tywin are both dead by this point. The 'Dornish marriage' plot may well have been averted due to the altered geopolitical realities, so Cercei still has Tommen and Myrcella, and thus: things she can lose. Everybody will be pressuring her to seek peace, and somebody like Kevan Lannister will certainly be pushing for it no matter what Cercei wants.

Robb's demands will probably boild down to: the North, the Vale and the Riverlands will be divorced from the Iron Throne, and will be independent states (presumably in a league of some sort). Dorne probably gets the same deal (but merely in a more loose alliance with the others). That, plus some sort of indemnity, presumably to be brokered via the Iron Bank to ensure future compliance.

After that, Robb can turn his forces back North, and drive the Ironborn out of Winterfell. This leaves him with the problem of Stannis still being holed up at the Wall (and the flood of messages about the undead besieging the place), as well as the question of whether or not to attempt a punitive campaign against the Ironborn.

I'd assume that by this point, we're somewhere in the second half of the year 300.
 
Both in order to angle for Cat's gratitude, and to get in with the winning side. (
Not to mention, actually try and get a Angle for Cat herself.
but we may assume he still doesn't kill Bran and Rickon.
From what I recall that entire incident was provoked by Brans visions and the like, which I think would still be valid in this scenario, and he decided to fake the executions out of fear of looking like weak to his dad and the like. I don't know if that side of the equation is still running: on one hand, Robb was still alive when he faked it, on the other the Bolton's were fucking things up so he could plausibly get away with it in his head (Ie not face his sorta freind any time soon) Either way it be interesting to say the least to see how Robb deals with the whole mess when he get backs home
 
Not to mention, actually try and get a Angle for Cat herself.
Not that he has even a remote chance of that happening.

From what I recall that entire incident was provoked by Brans visions and the like, which I think would still be valid in this scenario, and he decided to fake the executions out of fear of looking like weak to his dad and the like. I don't know if that side of the equation is still running: on one hand, Robb was still alive when he faked it, on the other the Bolton's were fucking things up so he could plausibly get away with it in his head (Ie not face his sorta freind any time soon) Either way it be interesting to say the least to see how Robb deals with the whole mess when he get backs home
I'm not too sure about the exact details. As far as I recall, Theon's big struggle was between his loyalty to Robb and his loyalty to his Greyjoy family. The Starks treated him with affection, but never truly allowed him to forget that he was funtionally a hostage. Meanwhile, the Greyjoys treat him with disdain, but do respect strength. If he proves himself, he can be one of them.

But he can't kill Bran and Rickon, so he presents the charred corpses of two commoners, and allows Bran and Rickon to escape.
 
I'm not too sure about the exact details. As far as I recall, Theon's big struggle was between his loyalty to Robb and his loyalty to his Greyjoy family. The Starks treated him with affection, but never truly allowed him to forget that he was funtionally a hostage. Meanwhile, the Greyjoys treat him with disdain, but do respect strength. If he proves himself, he can be one of them.

But he can't kill Bran and Rickon, so he presents the charred corpses of two commoners, and allows Bran and Rickon to escape.
Pretty much got it except one detail: He Never considered killing them, his plan was to recapture them and when that fell through he was in a "Oh Shit" situation of "I'll look bad to the family now" and then got those two commoners. Of course his family just face palmed at him because of just how shitty a situation that left them
Not that he has even a remote chance of that happening.
Seeing him try would be hilarious to see.
 
@Skallagrim
I thought Gregor existed as a literal “Hate Sink” for Sandor

As in Sandor doesn’t go off and kill Gregor, less because it wouldn’t be politically safe to do so and more because without a person to concentrate his hatred, he’d be lost

Also, would it be a good idea to hire a deserter?
 
@Skallagrim
I thought Gregor existed as a literal “Hate Sink” for Sandor

As in Sandor doesn’t go off and kill Gregor, less because it wouldn’t be politically safe to do so and more because without a person to concentrate his hatred, he’d be lost

Also, would it be a good idea to hire a deserter?
The Starks are lawful stupid; they trust the wrong people every fifteen minutes.

As far as Sandor is concerned -- he does repeatedly express the desire to kill Gregor, and it is only Gregor's protected status that prevents him from forcing the issue. I do think that he knows that if he ever kills Gregor, he'll lose his entire raison d'être, but he still burns (ha, pun fucking intended) to kill the insane brute of a brother who pushed his face into the fire. (And who apparently, although the books never make it explicit enough to be fully certain, murdered their sister, too.)
 
The Starks are lawful stupid; they trust the wrong people every fifteen minutes.

As far as Sandor is concerned -- he does repeatedly express the desire to kill Gregor, and it is only Gregor's protected status that prevents him from forcing the issue. I do think that he knows that if he ever kills Gregor, he'll lose his entire raison d'être, but he still burns (ha, pun fucking intended) to kill the insane brute of a brother who pushed his face into the fire. (And who apparently, although the books never make it explicit enough to be fully certain, murdered their sister, too.)

What advice would Sandor have on how to kill Gregor? Outside of a one-on-one, he's got his "Mountain's Men" and other Lannister Forces around and I think Gregor knows actual tactics to a degree

And just because he managed to fight sort of on par with Gregor that one time, doesn't necessarily mean he'd be able to do so again
 
What advice would Sandor have on how to kill Gregor? Outside of a one-on-one, he's got his "Mountain's Men" and other Lannister Forces around and I think Gregor knows actual tactics to a degree

And just because he managed to fight sort of on par with Gregor that one time, doesn't necessarily mean he'd be able to do so again
This is treating it like a rational matter. Sandor isn't being remotely rational about it. He wants to kill Gregor. It think he imagines a battlefield, and whatever side he's with versus whatever side Gregor's with, and then him finally getting his confrontation and killing the brother he hates.

Realistically, the odds of that working out are barely worth mentioning.
 
This is treating it like a rational matter. Sandor isn't being remotely rational about it. He wants to kill Gregor. It think he imagines a battlefield, and whatever side he's with versus whatever side Gregor's with, and then him finally getting his confrontation and killing the brother he hates.

Realistically, the odds of that working out are barely worth mentioning.

TBF, it would be real hard to slay the Mountain even with an army, eventually Sandor may try zoning in on the guy
 
Starks are lawful stupid; they trust the wrong people every fifteen minutes.
Well I wouldnt exactly go that far: Robb had reason to trust Theon being child hood Freinds and all, and even then Cat is very quick to say "Wrong move". Peyter was good with Cat when she was a girl, granted Abit dumb to trust him after the entire situation in the brothel but I don't think Ned really does. As for the Freys: The reason the Red wedding is so effective is because no one in their right mind would expect it. Hospitality is a pretty sacred by all human civilizations and Marriage more so. Doing that brazen a violation of it is absolutely insane for most decent minded people. The people they fucked up with genuinely with are the Boltons and Jamie (although that one is all on Cat). They should of cracked down hard on the Boltons the second Roose started being a little Psychopathic monster back home and while Jamie would of actually probably worked out, it's only because of all the Charecter development he got from losing his hand.
 
They should of cracked down hard on the Boltons the second Roose started being a little Psychopathic monster back home

TBF, I think the Boltons' "proclivities" are a "secret" and are limited to the occasional smallfolk in their lands, but not necessarily those of their immediate vassals, and Roose is incredibly effective at blackmailing and threatening and disfiguring and killing and torturing those in-the-know into being a "quiet people"

And who knows, maybe other Lords and other previous Starks knew all along for generations and were watching their backs and hoping the Boltons weren't eyeing any of their neighbours with the intention of doing "things" to them

And while Roose may be lying and/or projecting, other Houses maybe secretly doing "the Right of The First Night" instead of just having the occasional mistress and going to the whorehouse, so they may keep shut so others also keep shut
 

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