Philosophy Radical Sapphic Democracy: A Theory of Politics

more Lego's than trucks.


dunno how much social incompetence it needs to decide that the best solution to not getting paid enough is to talk to your employer to negotiate better pay.


Frankly, I don't get why you keep insisting that differences in general trends in a group is necessarily bad/requires that one treat each individual as entirely part of the group.

There are outliers everywhere, general trends are useful pretty much solely for people who need to worry about massive numbers of people. It's amusing how few people are "average".


You are the one arguing that men have technical minds and women have social minds. I am simply pointing out that if this is true, women should make up the overwhelming majority of managers, executives, senior bureaucrats, military officers above the rank of O-3, diplomats, and lawyers, as they are naturally better-suited for it. Some few exceptional and unusual men could be allowed into those positions, though they would almost certainly prove themselves inferior to a truly capable woman. It is even possible a man could be trusted to lead a nation someday, if he had the right women picking his cabinet for him.
 
overwhelming majority of managers, executives, senior bureaucrats, military officers above the rank of O-3, diplomats, and lawyers, as they are naturally better-suited for it.
And yet so much more goes into all of these jobs than interest in social things. For instance, time investment.


Anyway, frankly, this argument is kind of silly and I am sleepy. Good night.
 
And yet so much more goes into all of these jobs than interest in social things. For instance, time investment.


Anyway, frankly, this argument is kind of silly and I am sleepy. Good night.

Those are jobs that all rely on the ability to evaluate people and make decisions about people, ahead of technical knowledge. The apex of technical skill in the military is in warrant and petty officers. You are now saying that women just don't... put time into things as a response? A non sequitur.
 
Those are jobs that all rely on the ability to evaluate people and make decisions about people, ahead of technical knowledge. The apex of technical skill in the military is in warrant and petty officers. You are now saying that women just don't... put time into things as a response? A non sequitur.
Women do in fact work less hours than men on average. They also take more time off in average. So yeah they kind of do put less time into things.
 
Those are jobs that all rely on the ability to evaluate people and make decisions about people, ahead of technical knowledge.
They also all rely on things like commitment and controlled aggression and competitiveness.

And while women certainly CAN commit that hard(see extant female CEO's, good mom's, etc) the vast majority of them don't want to commit that hard to a career.

Also, an interesting thing to note. No male dominated sports league has a rule blocking women AFAIK, every Women's League has rules blocking men.
 
Also, an interesting thing to note. No male dominated sports league has a rule blocking women AFAIK, every Women's League has rules blocking men.

When any group or faction in society starts openly saying "we get to have our own reserved spaces where you aren't allowed, but you don't get to have any space of yours where we aren't allowed" there is going to be trouble.
 
Women do in fact work less hours than men on average. They also take more time off in average. So yeah they kind of do put less time into things.

Incorrect. Women put more hours in than men do. It is simply due to the inadequacy of men that about 40% of these hours are unpaid efforts to keep the world functioning without it collapsing into a fetid mess.

They also all rely on things like commitment and controlled aggression and competitiveness.

And while women certainly CAN commit that hard(see extant female CEO's, good mom's, etc) the vast majority of them don't want to commit that hard to a career.

Also, an interesting thing to note. No male dominated sports league has a rule blocking women AFAIK, every Women's League has rules blocking men.

Now you're introducing the idea that women aren't aggressive, or can't control their aggression, and don't compete. I'm beginning to suspect that you've never actually met a woman.
 
Incorrect. Women put more hours in than men do. It is simply due to the inadequacy of men that about 40% of these hours are unpaid efforts to keep the world functioning without it collapsing into a fetid mess.
Hours put into X are hours not put into Y. This is basic.
Now you're introducing the idea that women aren't aggressive, or can't control their aggression, and don't compete. I'm beginning to suspect that you've never actually met a woman.
...and now I am super hyper done because now you are putting words into my mouth that weren't there. Women do do all those things, BUT they do them differently then men do AND tend to focus them on different things. See what I said about commitment.
 
Hours put into X are hours not put into Y. This is basic.

If you're endorsing the notion that women should go on strike until men perform a fair share of overall labor, I must ponder whether you have really thought the likely consequences through, but I support it.

...and now I am super hyper done because now you are putting words into my mouth that weren't there. Women do do all those things, BUT they do them differently then men do AND tend to focus them on different things. See what I said about commitment.

So why bring them up if they aren't a difference you're using in order to explain why women are unsuited for well-paying positions and especially for having (rightful) authority over men?
 
So why bring them up if they aren't a difference you're using in order to explain why women are unsuited for well-paying positions and especially for having (rightful) authority over men?
See what I said about commitment.
the vast majority of them don't want to commit that hard to a career
and since I've now provided all the reading in nice little bite sized chunks I'm utterly done. Well, ok, I should respond to the one actual response you made to things I said.
If you're endorsing the notion that women should go on strike until men perform a fair share of overall labor, I must ponder whether you have really thought the likely consequences through, but I support it.
I have no idea why you want everyone doing precisely the same amount of everything but to that I say, "Specialization is useful". Also that frankly society would probably stop working if you decided that everyone had to do the same amount of non-career related work. The entire reason you need to commit so hard to the jobs discussed is because of their time demands.
 
If the worth of people is incommensurable, not comparable, then they cannot be unequal because an inequality cannot actually be defined. Thus, they would not be equal or unequal but existing in a state of uncertain equality. That is, if we define that equality is a mathematical term, so too is inequality. And to define two things as existing in either of the two states requires the ability to measure them for comparison.
You are trying to shift the burden of proof. I make no universal claims about the relative worth of human beings. A person who claims that they are all equal is making a positive claim and as such must provide evidence for that position, which would be impossible as they cannot even provide a coherent definition of equality much less provide evidence for it.

Not only is equality a positive claim, the believers is this mystical idea demand action be taken as a result of their faith - action which is often quite radical and/or violent.

Given that, you argue that inequality is a social good, because if people rejected the belief that they were equal to other people, they would naturally be content with their lot in life. Leaving aside the question of whether the ability to be discontented is potentially a good thing or not for the moment, this conflicts with your statements about the uncertainty of measuring inequality. What stops people, even ones who believe in inequality, from saying "I am better than person X with things Y and Z, I deserve things Y and Z more than they do"? That is, what reason is there to believe that people can both be utterly bamboozled by notions of equality and yet simultaneously would recognize their natural superiors on sight?
I've made no claim that inequality is a social good, only that the misbegotten belief in equality is a social bad, as any widespread belief in mistruth tends to be.

Any claim of superiority would have to be justified as would be the supposed benefits such a superior person claims to deserve. If people get paid $20 for every widget that they make and person A makes 20 widgets a day and person B makes 10 widgets a day, then person A could justifiably claim to be the superior widget maker and that they are entitled to $400 for a day of widget making while person B only gets $200 a day for making widgets. If person B's claim that they are equal to person A and therefore are entitled to make as much money for a day of constructing widgets as person A, then that is a belief that is seemingly (assuming no important information has been left out) unjustified.

Finally, going back to the ability to be discontented, surely that is itself a social good if the inequalities are unjust? That is, as you have laid things out, it seems that you might agree with "people in the USSR ought to have been contented with the fact that Party membership sped you up in the waiting line to get a TV, or that members of the PolitBuro had access to the best dachas, because assuredly they deserved them more because they had them". Is that accurate? I must confess I don't really see why it would be inaccurate.
I don't think that contentment is necessarily good nor do I believe that discontent is necessarily bad. Content or discontent should be appropriate to the situation. The desire for equality, often in practice meaning sameness or at least selective sameness, isn't a justifiable reason for discontent. For example, if you own a home which you are happy with, that is a size that fits you and your family well, and you feel contented with that home; would it not be inappropriate to become discontent, and in fact hostile, upon discovery of someone else with a larger house?

As Teddy Roosevelt said "Comparison is the thief of joy."

A hungry person should strive to acquire food, a slave should strive to acquire freedom, the lonely should strive to find friendship and/or companionship. None of this is contingent on what food, freedoms, or friends someone else might have.

If we return to relations between the sexes, a feminist woman might demand equality. She might say that men make more money than women, just as an example. Since equality has no meaning, it is an irrational idea, she substitutes sameness for equality. She demands that women make the same amount of money, on average as men. Of course, this is selective sameness, she wants women to make the same amount of money as men on average but doesn't seem to care that well over 90% of job related deaths are men, that men work harder jobs, with longer hours, with fewer fringe benefits. Those extra male dollars, like the simplified example of widget makers above, are earned and not merely given. So instead of merely focusing on what accomplishments might bring her contentment, she instead selectively chooses certain advantages that men have while conveniently ignoring men's many disadvantages and then cries for equality.

We would be far happier, and actually more moral, if we simply rejected the idea of equality and realized that all people have a multitude of strengths and weaknesses and also a multitude of advantages and disadvantages and seek to fulfill our wants and needs rather than feel victimized because all outcomes aren't the same for all people or groups of people.
 
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and since I've now provided all the reading in nice little bite sized chunks I'm utterly done. Well, ok, I should respond to the one actual response you made to things I said.

I have no idea why you want everyone doing precisely the same amount of everything but to that I say, "Specialization is useful". Also that frankly society would probably stop working if you decided that everyone had to do the same amount of non-career related work. The entire reason you need to commit so hard to the jobs discussed is because of their time demands.

The world isn't going to end if you do your laundry and your dishes. Or cook. It's not going to end if everyone shared the burden of the unpaid labor of social reproduction out equitably. But it would force a reevaluation of the market value of different human beings, which would be a terrifying prospect, as it might force some disturbing questions about people's true value.

You are trying to shift the burden of proof. I make no universal claims about the relative worth of human beings. A person who claims that they are all equal is making a positive claim and as such must provide evidence for that position, which would be impossible as they cannot even provide a coherent definition of equality much less provide evidence for it.

Not only is equality a positive claim, the believers is this mystical idea demand action be taken as a result of their faith - action which is often quite radical and/or violent.

I would not suggest that the American War of Independence, American Civil War, the Civil Rights Movement, suffragism, Chartism, etc. were terrible things. I take it you disagree.

I've made no claim that inequality is a social good, only that the misbegotten belief in equality is a social bad, as any widespread belief in mistruth tends to be.

Any claim of superiority would have to be justified as would be the supposed benefits such a superior person claims to deserve. If people get paid $20 for every widget that they make and person A makes 20 widgets a day and person B makes 10 widgets a day, then person A could justifiably claim to be the superior widget maker and that they are entitled to $400 for a day of widget making while person B only gets $200 a day for making widgets. If person B's claim that they are equal to person A and therefore are entitled to make as much money for a day of constructing widgets as person A, then that is a belief that is seemingly (assuming no important information has been left out) unjustified.

So are you advocating a reversion to pay by piece-work and the total quantification of everything?

I don't think that contentment is necessarily good nor do I believe that discontent is necessarily bad. Content or discontent should be appropriate to the situation. The desire for equality, often in practice meaning sameness or at least selective sameness, isn't a justifiable reason for discontent. For example, if you own a home which you are happy with, that is a size that fits you and your family well, and you feel contented with that home; would it not be inappropriate to become discontent, and in fact hostile, upon discovery of someone else with a larger house?

As Teddy Roosevelt said "Comparison is the thief of joy."

A hungry person should strive to acquire food, a slave should strive to acquire freedom, the lonely should strive to find friendship and/or companionship. None of this is contingent on what food, freedoms, or friends someone else might have.

If we return to relations between the sexes, a feminist woman might demand equality. She might say that men make more money than women, just as an example. Since equality has no meaning, it is an irrational idea, she substitutes sameness for equality. She demands that women make the same amount of money, on average as men. Of course, this is selective sameness, she wants women to make the same amount of money as men on average but doesn't seem to care that well over 90% of job related deaths are men, that men work harder jobs, with longer hours, with fewer fringe benefits. Those extra male dollars, like the simplified example of widget makers above, are earned and not merely given. So instead of merely focusing on what accomplishments might bring her contentment, she instead selectively chooses certain advantages that men have while conveniently ignoring men's many disadvantages and then cries for equality.

We would be far happier, and actually more moral, if we simply rejected the idea of equality and realized that all people have a multitude of strengths and weaknesses and also a multitude of advantages and disadvantages and seek to fulfill our wants and needs rather than feel victimized because all outcomes aren't the same for all people or groups of people.

Why should a slave strive to acquire freedom, in your view? Why should they compare their lack of freedom with the freedoms others possess and not focus on what accomplishments might bring them contentment? Why should they selectively choose certain advantages that free people have while conveniently ignoring the massive burden slaveowners live under, and then cry for an insipid sameness of freedom?

That is to say, your argument here could have been more readily and simply stated by quoting Doctor Pangloss: "All is for the best, in this best of all possible worlds!" It is fundamentally incoherent in that it relies entirely on taking a supposed principle and then applying it selectively to defend a current status quo as if that status quo were created by an act of pure reason rather than being a consequence of histories. That is, should we examine any historical acts of "leveling" as fundamentally wrong, as you have them here, down to the notion that some people are living gods and deserve to be worshiped, and thus take action to undo these acts of leveling to restore the proper order of hierarchy? Or should we simply say that the order of events today, or possibly that of 70 years ago so that you can get your kicks by being unable to open your own bank account or whatever it is you enjoy about your lifestyle, is the ideal human society and we should do nothing to disrupt it in any fashion?
 

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