Ottoman Wars thread

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Thread about the Ottoman wars from the beginning of the expansion in 13th century until the end of the Ottoman Empire.

I will start with an old post on a new blog:
 
Nice thread, but you should start from the beginning, as in, some history of the Ottoman Turks and how they took Byzantium and most of the Balkans, as it just so happens, here is a nice video(in Bulgarian but with English captions), that deals with the period when they turned from an insignificant beylic of smash and grab mercenaries into something major:



TW;DW, it is all those damned Serbs and Greekies fault for fucking shit up, the fact that Bulgaria was fractured towards the end didn't help, either.
 
Thread about the Ottoman wars from the beginning of the expansion in 13th century until the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Ottoman Wars are one of my favorite parts of history to read and learn about. The Fall of the Byzantine Empire is one of the epic 'tragedies' of history IMHO and the subsequent Hapsburg-Ottoman Wars just seem absolutely legendary. It's like a War between Superpowers with such strong ideological differences and in a rapidly changing world (the Christian Reformation and Age of Discovery etc) and the Balkans and Mediterranean being such a battlefield. Plus with how cosmopolitan and amalgamated both sides of the conflict were and how it was spread across hundreds of miles of land and sea. And of course all of the amazing personalities drawn up in there, I'd start naming them off but because I could probably name more Croats then Bulgarians, some people might get triggered. :p

BUTT the real reason I loved reading about that era of history is because of my formative years as a wee lass my exposure to such Epic Military History was Geoffrey Regans Guinness Book of Decisive Battles. It had a series of Battles that just intrigued me. The Siege of Constantinople in 1453, the Siege of Vienna in 1529 and the Battle of Lepanto in 1571. And there was a whole history of the conflict encapsulated between those dates that you just got hints of in the margins. Epic last stand type of conflicts, real life Helms Deep and Pelennor Fields type of stuff where you had a few standing against many as well as some of the largest general battles period, naval and land, between two societies that were very different from each other.

It's really those epic Sieges that stand out to me the most when it comes to military history. The lopsided numbers and how one side could hold out against such formidable forces. You of course had the Siege of Constantinople in 1453 where eight thousand defenders (including three thousand foreign volunteers/mercenaries) defending a city of less then a hundred thousand from around an Army that was potentially larger then the population of the city itself. And somehow... it was still almost a close run thing as sieges go (at least in the short term). 8000 versus 130000!

Then there's the TWO Sieges of Rhodes, the small island within view of the Ottoman Turk dominated mainland. The defending Knights Hospitallers numbering about 4000 defeated an invasion force of 70000 Ottoman Turks in 1480 and then tried again, and succeeded after a six month long siege in 1522 with similar disproportionate numbers involved. Or the 1529 Siege of Vienna (often eclipsed by the 1683 Siege of Vienna because of better costume design) where a city with inferior medieval fortifications and 16000 defenders somehow managed to devastate and defeat the besieging Ottoman Turk army of almost 150,000 soldiers.

Or the 1565 Invasion of Malta where the Ottoman Turks decided to have a rematch with the Knights Hospitallers and again outnumbered them several fold but still failed. Or the Ottomans conquest of Cyprus and the apparent betrayal of the perfidious Turks after an honorable surrender was secured after the Siege of Famagusta (120,000 besieging Turks versus 8000 defenders).

And of course there were also the multiple Sieges of Belgrade, of Pressburg, and the longest Siege in history, that of Candia on Crete that lasted over twenty years and eventually the Ottomans managed to take the city in a real pyrrhic victory. And of course the famous Siege of Vienna in 1683. Have to obligatorily mention that.

You also had some really epic battles, like the Night Attack and the overall campaign by DRACULA where a Wallachian Army practically destroyed an Ottoman Army several times its size and almost killed the Ottoman Emperor in 1462. Or disputably the largest naval Battle in history, Lepanto in 1571.

Hmm yeah... that's enough ranting for now.

My favorite popular historian in regards to this period is Roger Crowley, specifically his first two books, 1453: The Holy War for Constantinople and the Clash of Islam and the West and especially Empires of the Sea: The Siege of Malta, the Battle of Lepanto, and the Contest for the Center of the World which covered a lot of the maritime aspects of the Ottoman Wars against the Hapsburgs and allied powers over the Mediterranean Sea.

I also enjoyed reading The Enemy at the Gate: Habsburgs, Ottomans, and the Battle for Europe by Andrew Wheatcroft, which covers in almost verbose detail, the Siege and Lifting of said Siege of Vienna in 1683 but what I found rather interesting was how he covered in the last portion of the book how the Hapsburg rapidly turned the tide against the Ottomans with the reconquest of Hungary and the rise of one of the greatest Generals in history period, Prince Eugene of Savoy.

There's other books out there whose name and such escape me as well.
 
Arguably the sieges of Vienna were more relevant politically and morally than militarily.
Due to distance and organisation of Ottoman forces (which had to start the season in Constantinople), Vienna was impossible for Turks to hold.
 
Arguably the sieges of Vienna were more relevant politically and morally than militarily.
Due to distance and organisation of Ottoman forces (which had to start the season in Constantinople), Vienna was impossible for Turks to hold.
I think that by that time they were starting to run out of steam.
They had had a decent amount of internal intrigue and dethronings, including of sultans, and their attemtp to take Vienna and move farther west was their last hurrah.
 
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Ottoman Wars are one of my favorite parts of history to read and learn about. The Fall of the Byzantine Empire is one of the epic 'tragedies' of history IMHO and the subsequent Hapsburg-Ottoman Wars just seem absolutely legendary.
Personally, I find Ottoman-Hungarian wars more interesting than the Ottoman-Habsburg wars. To the point that I actually wrote about them (those two links I posted).
 
Personally, I find Ottoman-Hungarian wars more interesting than the Ottoman-Habsburg wars. To the point that I actually wrote about them (those two links I posted).

Oh that's interesting. When reading Roger Crowley especially in his book about the Wars for the Mediterranean, he didn't really talk about 'interesting' but seemed to find the maritime conflict more important and central then the conflicts in the Balkans and Eastern/Central Europe etc. He probably did find them more interesting as well, the dudes from Malta and all of his books have a very maritime/naval focus which is fine. Everyone has their personal tastes.

Thread about the Ottoman wars from the beginning of the expansion in 13th century until the end of the Ottoman Empire.

I will start with an old post on a new blog:

Wow that was a neat readup!

I mostly know of John Hunyadi from stories about based bloodthirsty Wallachian Vampires and the like and the Battle of Varna (not to be confused with the Marvel Tomb of Dracula mega vampire, Varnae). The most hilarious story is that both he and Matthias Corvinus made an onscreen appearance as the frenemy of Vlad Dracula in the History Channel USA Network Television movie Dark Prince: The True Story of Dracula. FYI... it was not a true story of Dracula... except in the technical sense of it is truly a story about Dracula. ;) Still... good watching for a television movie from 2000.

Oh wait... I didn't explain how John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus BOTH made an appearance in that film. They were both merged into one character, 'King Janos' of Hungary. John Hunyadi dying and his son Matthias Corvinus rising to replace him during Vlad Dracula's lifetime was apparently an inconvenience for the plot that needed consistency in its major supporting characters, which from a television movie storytelling point, actually makes sense.

Plus it means in the multiverse, there is a supremely based Hungarian SuperMonarch who is a merger of John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus out there... somewhere.

Anyways I digress. Time for hot takes...

War Fantasy said:
Murat II. decided to avenge this defeat, and raised an army which according to some sources may have had as many as 80 000 men. Army was led by Sehabadin-pasa, new beglerbeg of Rumelia. Army had Jannisaries as well as six banners of Anatolian begs and sandzakbegs. First target was Wallachia. Unable to face this force in the open field, Vlad Dracul retreated to Carpathain mountains to wait for Hunyadi, who arrived in early September. Sehabedin sent a portion of the army to devastate Wallachia, while most of the army went after Dracula along Iaomite river valley. Hunyadi and Dracula faced the Ottoman army on 6th September 1442. near Vasaq, in a narrow valley surrounded by hills. Thuroczy described the terrain as "iron gates", which is why older literature sometimes incorrectly states that battle happened at Iron Gates on Danube. Hunyadi had 15 000 men, at least some of them drafted citizens and peasants.

Hunyadi again deployed his army with infantry in the center, with battle wagons protecting the flanks and the rear of infantry. Cavalry was placed at the wings outside the wagons. Hunyadi started battle by sending forward infantry and wagons to attack the Ottoman center. Battle lasted until nightfall when Ottomans finally broke. Sehabadin himself escaped, but Ottomans had lost 20 000 dead men, 200 flags and 5 000 horses and camels. Hunyadi abandoned the pursuit across Danube, instead sending his forces to clear Wallachia from Ottomans. Ottoman army was destroyed in a series of small battles, and the survivors were killed by peasants, so very few managed to get back to the Ottoman territory.

This is one of those epic Battles Imma talking about. I'm sure I've read about it before but never really retained it like I have other engagements. But this sounds super epic.

War Fantasy said:
Remnants of the Ottoman army were massacred by local peasants during retreat.

Everyone talks about the Muslim raiders slaughtering and enslaving peasants, but it's nice to see the inverse is often a theme through history of the period as well, ❤️ as in your own blog post you reference this occurring several times alone. What a fine tradition and past time to establish.

War Fantasy said:
King Wladislaus had not participated in the fighting thus far. Having grown afraid that Hunyadi will take all the accolades for the victory, he launched a completely unnecessary and illogical head-on attack on Janissaries. Attacking 10 000 Janissaries in fortified position with only 500 heavy cavalry could not succeed. Wladislaus was dragged off his horse and beheaded.

Mmm... certainly tried to be epic... but failed so miserably it might not even quite count as foreshadowing.

War Fantasy said:
Also, because of Venetian (and Genoese?) treason, 2/3 of Ottoman army managed to cross the straits – until that point, Ottomans only had 20 000 troops in the Balkans, which if not reinforced would have gotten crushed by Janos Hunyadi despite all the factors noted previously.

The thought of the Italian Mercantile City States being perfidious and treacherous is an unfounded lie with no basis in history! Anyways, it is interesting to see all of these campaigns occurring so close to the coming twilight of the Byzantine Empire.

War Fantasy said:
early September, Hunyadi had collected an army 24 000 strong, consisting of feudal banderies and mercenaries.

This is the earliest mention of those Ukrainian Nazis that I've heard so much about recently. :p (Yes I'm aware of the term Ban/Banns, I've played Dragon Age.)

Love the write up regarding the Battle of Kosovo, 1448 edition. Another Battle I never really heart much about. Serbia is too busy talking up that earlier Battle of Kosovo as part of their national heritage, for understandable reasons. Especially considering their (lacking) contribution to the campaign involving this later Battle of Kosovo.

Also interesting to see how this Battles aftermath led to a cooling down of hostilities between the Kingdom of Hungary and the Ottoman Turks which in turn, I'm sure coincidentally, also involved the Ottomans eventually gobbling up the final important bits of the Byzantine Empire, such as Constantinople in 1453.

War Fantasy said:
Hunyadi meanwhile collected some troops – no more than 20 000 – placing them in Belgrade under command of Mihail Szilagy. Crusader armies also started arriving to Hungary under John of Capistrano, composed mostly ordinary citizens and peasants armed with axes and farming tools – some 30 000 in total. Only professional soldiers were some 100 Germans and 300 Poles, as well as cavalry banderium of John Korogy.

Hunyadi must have known about heavy Ottoman cannons which destroyed the walls of Constantinople – these were the product of Central European arms industry, and sultan had utilized German, Italian and Saxon miners and artillerymen. Mihail Szilagy started first works on reinforcing the Belgrade in spring of 1455. Ditches were dug around the city and covered with branches and sulphur. Earth from digging the ditches was used to reinforce the lower portions of the walls from the outside. Walls of Constantinople had been covered with a mix of lime and broken brick which reduced the effectiveness of cannons, and similar approach may also have been used at Belgrade.

Sultan arrived at Belgrade in early July with an army of 120 000 men and 300 cannons, as well as Danube fleet of 70 large and 200 smaller ships. From land he surrounded the city with ditches and pallisades manned by infantry and artillery, and upriver on Danube he placed a barricade of chained ships, thus preventing any resupply. After the siege positions were finished, Ottoman artillery opened fire on the city. Sultan himself swore that he will take Belgrade in 15 days and have dinner in Budim in two months. Garrison of Belgrade, commanded by John Hunyadi's brother-in-law Michael Szilagyi, numbered 7 000 soldiers and 40 ships.

I've heard about about the Battle/Siege of Belgrade in 1456 so reading your writeup about it, especially the leadup to the conflict, was certainly interesting. It's nice to see how various different people present similar events in history.

I'll read about Matthias Corvinus later. I never really was interested in the Underworld movies that much or the underlying lore, but should be interesting to read up on it the herstory behind it. :p
 
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Oh that's interesting. When reading Roger Crowley especially in his book about the Wars for the Mediterranean, he didn't really talk about 'interesting' but seemed to find the maritime conflict more important and central then the conflicts in the Balkans and Eastern/Central Europe etc. He probably did find them more interesting as well, the dudes from Malta and all of his books have a very maritime/naval focus which is fine. Everyone has their personal tastes.
I honestly don't think maritime conflict was that important. Ottoman Empire dominated the Mediterranean during the 16th century, and there was frankly not much Europe was able to do about it. Any setbacks (e.g. Lepanto) were more symbolic than strategic in nature, I think.
Wow that was a neat readup!

I mostly know of John Hunyadi from stories about based bloodthirsty Wallachian Vampires and the like and the Battle of Varna (not to be confused with the Marvel Tomb of Dracula mega vampire, Varnae). The most hilarious story is that both he and Matthias Corvinus made an onscreen appearance as the frenemy of Vlad Dracula in the History Channel USA Network Television movie Dark Prince: The True Story of Dracula. FYI... it was not a true story of Dracula... except in the technical sense of it is truly a story about Dracula. ;) Still... good watching for a television movie from 2000.

Oh wait... I didn't explain how John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus BOTH made an appearance in that film. They were both merged into one character, 'King Janos' of Hungary. John Hunyadi dying and his son Matthias Corvinus rising to replace him during Vlad Dracula's lifetime was apparently an inconvenience for the plot that needed consistency in its major supporting characters, which from a television movie storytelling point, actually makes sense.

Plus it means in the multiverse, there is a supremely based Hungarian SuperMonarch who is a merger of John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus out there... somewhere.

Anyways I digress. Time for hot takes...
OK; that sounds crazy interesting.
This is one of those epic Battles Imma talking about. I'm sure I've read about it before but never really retained it like I have other engagements. But this sounds super epic.
It was, but I actually didn't find much written about it. Pity.
The thought of the Italian Mercantile City States being perfidious and treacherous is an unfounded lie with no basis in history! Anyways, it is interesting to see all of these campaigns occurring so close to the coming twilight of the Byzantine Empire.
Well, they were in part an attempt at saving said empire, so...
Love the write up regarding the Battle of Kosovo, 1448 edition. Another Battle I never really heart much about. Serbia is too busy talking up that earlier Battle of Kosovo as part of their national heritage, for understandable reasons. Especially considering their (lacking) contribution to the campaign involving this later Battle of Kosovo.
I believe they contributed some cavalry for the Ottomans. They did so earlier, at Nicopolis.
Also interesting to see how this Battles aftermath led to a cooling down of hostilities between the Kingdom of Hungary and the Ottoman Turks which in turn, I'm sure coincidentally, also involved the Ottomans eventually gobbling up the final important bits of the Byzantine Empire, such as Constantinople in 1453.
Well, there wasn't much choice in that regard for Hungary.
I'll read about Matthias Corvinus later. I never really was interested in the Underworld movies that much or the underlying lore, but should be interesting to read up on it the herstory behind it. :p
Yep! As so often, I find real history more interesting than fiction which draws inspiration from it.
 
Nice thread, but you should start from the beginning, as in, some history of the Ottoman Turks and how they took Byzantium and most of the Balkans, as it just so happens, here is a nice video(in Bulgarian but with English captions), that deals with the period when they turned from an insignificant beylic of smash and grab mercenaries into something major:



TW;DW, it is all those damned Serbs and Greekies fault for fucking shit up, the fact that Bulgaria was fractured towards the end didn't help, either.

Stefan Dusan became Tsar and proclaimed Serbia as an empire at the expense of Bulgaria.

However, when mentioning the Battle of Kosovo, I'm surprised the video that you provided there didn't mention how Murad I was killed. For this very reason, Milos Obilic is celebrated as a hero.
 
Stefan Dusan became Tsar and proclaimed Serbia as an empire at the expense of Bulgaria.

However, when mentioning the Battle of Kosovo, I'm surprised the video that you provided there didn't mention how Murad I was killed. For this very reason, Milos Obilic is celebrated as a hero.
Stefan Dusan was actually half Bulgarian and lived in Bulgaria for a large part of his early life.

And his "empire" fell apart in short order.

If we had kicked his ass and taken Serbia it would have been better for all of Europe.
 
See, the true end to the ottoman reogn of power and use of a threat was during the great Turkish war.
The other Islamic powers were ecstatic at the loss of the war by the Turks, for those that did not know.
 
See, the true end to the ottoman reogn of power and use of a threat was during the great Turkish war.
The other Islamic powers were ecstatic at the loss of the war by the Turks, for those that did not know.
It was already going downhill before that, they had a short period of resurgence, but ultimately there was too much internal stagnation and dogmatism.

Like the Jannisaries:
a) Rebelling because of new canons because they did not fit religious dogma.
b) Getting to marry and thus turning the whole institution into a quasi-hereditary patronage organzization.
c) Becoming overall inefficient vs. western armies.


And the succession of the sultan turning from an extremely meritocratic institution where the strongest son survived into one where weaklings and retards still clutching to their mothers' skirts were elevated Sultan.
 
It was already going downhill before that, they had a short period of resurgence, but ultimately there was too much internal stagnation and dogmatism.

Like the Jannisaries:
a) Rebelling because of new canons because they did not fit religious dogma.
b) Getting to marry and thus turning the whole institution into a quasi-hereditary patronage organzization.
c) Becoming overall inefficient vs. western armies.


And the succession of the sultan turning from an extremely meritocratic institution where the strongest son survived into one where weaklings and retards still clutching to their mothers' skirts were elevated Sultan.
You arnt wrong.
We also have to look at that the end of the great Turkish war basically set them into a spot of losing any chance to conquer back into Europe.

I also wouldn't call the jannisaries ineffective against western armies.
We have quotes tht dragoons we're not able to unlodge hold up Jannissies during the braking of the Siege if Vienna.
 
You arnt wrong.
We also have to look at that the end of the great Turkish war basically set them into a spot of losing any chance to conquer back into Europe.

I also wouldn't call the jannisaries ineffective against western armies.
We have quotes tht dragoons we're not able to unlodge hold up Jannissies during the braking of the Siege if Vienna.
You really should not synonymize fanatical and disciplined with effective, IMHO.

If you haven't noticed by interactions with yours truly, we of the Balkans can be rather pig headed and autistic, persevering where others would have called it quits.
Especially where pointless grudge matches are concerned. ;)
 
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You really should not synonymize fanatical and disciplined with effective, IMHO.

If you haven't noticed by interactions with yours truly, we of the Balkans can be rather pig headed and autistic, persevering where others would have called it quits.
Especially where pointless grudge matches are concerned. ;)
I mean, they eventually only gave up when the Polish King John III asked them too as they requested.

Have you ever read the secret memories about King Jihn III
 
I mean, they eventually only gave up when the Polish King John III asked them too as they requested.
Haven't looked that deeply into those battles, tbh.
Since they had close to zero impact on my own history.
Have you ever read the secret memories about King Jihn III
Jihn?!?

What do Koreans or Chinese have to do with what we are discussing right now?!?!
:ROFLMAO:
:sneaky::cool:

Humor aside, no, I have not, I have had to suffer through a lot of infodumps about the administration of the ottoman empire, though.

And it was all downhill since the 17th century.
 
Haven't looked that deeply into those battles, tbh.
Since they had close to zero impact on my own history.

Jihn?!?

What do Koreans or Chinese have to do with what we are discussing right now?!?!
:ROFLMAO:
:sneaky::cool:

Humor aside, no, I have not, I have had to suffer through a lot of infodumps about the administration of the ottoman empire, though.

And it was all downhill since the 17th century.
The vizier who was in charge of the Siege didn't seem to care about the holy league behind him and that led to his defeat.
According to polish sources
 
The vizier who was in charge of the Siege didn't seem to care about the holy league behind him and that led to his defeat.
According to polish sources
Tolkien basically copy-pasted the siege into the Battle of Pelennor. Both the Vizier and the Witch King kinda forgot about existence of the rest of the world while focusing on the prize.
 

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