On June 1 1492 an ROB teleports the country of Numenor from Tolkien into the middle of the Atlantic, as it was during the middle of the reign of Tar-Palantir. The Ban of the Valar is naturally no longer in force, and all Numenoreans in their Middle-Earth colonies are teleported back to Numenor itself.
What are the European powers' response to Numenor's arrival, and what is Numenor's response to 15th century Europe?
Europeans will quickly find Numenor and set upon her, taking advantage of the rebels against Tar-Palantir, who may, finding themselves beyond the reach of the Valar, find a convenient conversion to Christianity shall earn them favour and alliance in the courts of Europe. Tar-Palantir himself will find himself abandoned and alone... With Christendom demanding his subjection and only a marriagable daughter as a bargaining chip.
Europeans will quickly find Numenor and set upon her, taking advantage of the rebels against Tar-Palantir, who may, finding themselves beyond the reach of the Valar, find a convenient conversion to Christianity shall earn them favour and alliance in the courts of Europe. Tar-Palantir himself will find himself abandoned and alone... With Christendom demanding his subjection and only a marriagable daughter as a bargaining chip.
Also, I’m pretty sure they worship Eru Illuvatar, they got more evidence of his existence
Unless you can convince them that Eru Illuvatar and Yahweh are one in the same and maybe for them to overlook the factionalized Church’s in Europe and their varying degrees of corruption, I can see them being rather xenophobic or wary of Europeans
Numenoreans will be suspected to NOT be human, when they confirm how old on average they are
Also, I’m pretty sure they worship Eru Illuvatar, they got more evidence of his existence
Unless you can convince them that Eru Illuvatar and Yahweh are one in the same and maybe for them to overlook the factionalized Church’s in Europe and their varying degrees of corruption, I can see them being rather xenophobic or wary of Europeans
You think that Gimilkhâd and Ar-Pharazôn are really faithful to Eru Illuvatar? They might even, due to their great hatred of the Valar, find perfection in the strict monotheism and imageless God -- of Islam.
You think that Gimilkhâd and Ar-Pharazôn are really faithful to Eru Illuvatar? They might even, due to their great hatred of the Valar, find perfection in the strict monotheism and imageless God -- of Islam.
You think that Gimilkhâd and Ar-Pharazôn are really faithful to Eru Illuvatar? They might even, due to their great hatred of the Valar, find perfection in the strict monotheism and imageless God -- of Islam.
Certainly, but who will they ally with? Numenor has its own great ships and will trade with all of Europe. Who will each side find ideologically-religiously, and politically, and economically, useful to be aligned with? For Numenorean society in this period is deeply split.
What made the Spanish so feared around the world in this era was their seamless combined arms in which they integrated muskets, pikes, and sword-and-target men into the Tercio, the first modern combined arms formation, which, animated by a Roman level of discipline in the ranks, allowed them for a hundred and twenty years to rule the European battlefield. In 1492 they are right on the verge of inventing it.
But you also underestimate the musket. The critical thing is that the ball may penetrate armour much better than an arrow can, especially at range. And it's not so accurate, but it doesn't need to be when aimed at a massed body of men, so the discharge of a salvo cuts through their armour even at range, whereas the arrows would not be effective, especially against full plate, until close in. Now, armour does exist which could turn a musket ball, but it required very heavy plate, and of course, the Spanish used very heavy muskets which were supported by a monopod when firing.
How long till the Numenoreans adapt to guns or realise that these lesser lived men have more advanced technologies? And that they should take some and use their knowledge
How long till the Numenoreans adapt to guns or realise that these lesser lived men have more advanced technologies? And that they should take some and use their knowledge
Probably several defeats, especially since they're disunited and can blame that instead. But they have amazing, magic-like technology of their own, and metalworking just as sophisticated as Europe, and better ships. So it's really a matter of a very specific field of technology being more advanced in Europe than in peaceful Numenor. Though unprotected by God, I wonder about disease....
That said, I can see the Numenoreans becoming xenophobic the moment guys like the Spanish Conquistadors decide to have some “fun” sacking their villages
You gotta “empathize” with that pirate in the last panels, you will HATE someone or some peoples who are better than you
Knowing how much longer Numenoreans live would probably result in a sheer existential rage from many who encounter them
“Ford: Death has been tolerable to me only because Death has been the Great Democrat, treating all alike. But now Death plays favorites. Zaccur Barstow, can you understand the bitter, bitter jealousy of the ordinary man of — oh, say fifty — who looks on one of your sort? Fifty years... twenty of them he is a child, he is well past thirty before he is skilled in his profession. He is forty before he is established and respected. For not more than the last ten years of his fifty he has really amounted to something.
And now, when he has reached his goal, what is his prize? His eyes are failing him, his bright young strength is gone, his heart and wind are not what they used to be. he is not senile yet... but he feels the chill of the first frost. He knows what is in store for him. He knows— he knows!
But it was inevitable and each man learned to be resigned to it.
Now you come along. You shame him in his weakness, you humble him before his children. He dares not plan for the future; you blithely undertake plans that will not mature for fifty years— for a hundred. No matter what success he has achieved, what excellence he has attained, you will catch up with him, pass him—outlive him. In his weakness you are kindto him.
Is it any wonder he hates you?
Zaccur: Do you hate me, Slayton Ford?
Ford: No. No, I cannot afford to hate anyone. But I can tell you this: had there been a secret, I would have it out of you if I had to tear you to pieces!”
Methuselah's Children is a Speculative Fiction novel by Robert A. Heinlein first published as a serial in 1941 and expanded into a full novel in 1958. It is about a group of naturally long-lived humans who find themselves persecuted by 22nd …
Unless you can convince them that Eru Illuvatar and Yahweh are one in the same and maybe for them to overlook the factionalized Church’s in Europe and their varying degrees of corruption, I can see them being rather xenophobic or wary of Europeans
Europeans in 1492 refering to God as "Jehova". What.
I'm sure any theologian worth their salt could recognize the obvious parallels between Tolkienic mythology and christianity if given the opposing literature and philosophy to actually examine, but it would be generations before any such effort was even made let alone completed. I think everyone here is massively underestimating the language barrier and the slowing effect it would have on cultural exchange.
Probably several defeats, especially since they're disunited and can blame that instead. But they have amazing, magic-like technology of their own, and metalworking just as sophisticated as Europe, and better ships. So it's really a matter of a very specific field of technology being more advanced in Europe than in peaceful Numenor. Though unprotected by God, I wonder about disease....
But you also underestimate the musket. The critical thing is that the ball may penetrate armour much better than an arrow can, especially at range. And it's not so accurate, but it doesn't need to be when aimed at a massed body of men, so the discharge of a salvo cuts through their armour even at range, whereas the arrows would not be effective, especially against full plate, until close in. Now, armour does exist which could turn a musket ball, but it required very heavy plate, and of course, the Spanish used very heavy muskets which were supported by a monopod when firing.
Comparing Tolkienic armies to historical armies is a bit like comparing the host of the Argives from The Illiad to historical greeks. The metalurgy of ancient times in tolkien is absolutely insane, and Numenoreans were laughably superior physically to modern men. They are noted for their unique and spectacular bow-craft, and if I recall, their armor produced both domestically and abroad by dwarves and elves. Armor historically reduced the effective range of muskets dramatically, even armor incapable of resisting a close range shot. There is some argument over whether the Numenoreans may have used solid breastplates or chain only, but whatever the case there are enough absurdly supernatural examples of contemporary metalworking that their armor surpassing real world examples is a virtual certainty.
It is certainly the case that any formation of real world men that made physical contact with a formation of Numenorians would be broken almost instantaneously. Pikes would be ripped out of hands or simply shattered without much ado, and physical exchanges between humans and Numenoreans would be decidedly brief and one sided.
Comparing Tolkienic armies to historical armies is a bit like comparing the host of the Argives from The Illiad to historical greeks. The metalurgy of ancient times in tolkien is absolutely insane, and Numenoreans were laughably superior physically to modern men. They are noted for their unique and spectacular bow-craft, and if I recall, their armor produced both domestically and abroad by dwarves and elves. Armor historically reduced the effective range of muskets dramatically, even armor incapable of resisting a close range shot. There is some argument over whether the Numenoreans may have used solid breastplates or chain only, but whatever the case there are enough absurdly supernatural examples of contemporary metalworking that their armor surpassing real world examples is a virtual certainty.
I really honestly gotta say that too many of those authors who think simple industrial to modern day weapons would be such extreme game breakers, look to purposely ignore the extreme amounts of skill and power found in those fantasy settings
Like, you think the armies of Chaos will easily bend over just because they were fought by guys using swords and spears and gunpowder of a more primitive sort before?
