More realistic cases of "Piedmont-style" national expansionism?

[WolfBear]

If I recall correctly (based on what I read, if my memory is correct), during his trial, Gavrilo Princip, the Serbian nationalist who murdered Franz Ferdinand and his wife in Sarajevo in June 1914, said that he wanted Serbia to become a Balkan version of Piedmont-Sardinia (the Italian city-state which unified Italy in the late 19th century) and to unite all of the South Slavs into one country and under one flag. In turn, this motivated me to ask this question: Which additional realistic cases of "Piedmong-style" national expanionism can you think of, both in real life and in alternate history?

In real life, we had:

-Piedmont-Sardinia serving as a nucleus for Italian unification
-Prussia serving as a nucleus for German unification
-(Farther back) Muscovy serving as a nucleus for Russian unification
-Serbia serving as a nucleus for Yugoslav unification
-Eastern Galicia sort-of serving as a nucleus for Ukrainian unification, at least in regards to spreading Ukrainian nationalism to other parts of Ukraine
-Wallachia and Moldavia serving as a nucleus for Romanian unification

Were there or could there have been any other cases of this? I'm excluding cases such as the US here because the territories west of the 13 Colonies were very sparsely populated other than for Native Americans back when the US acquired its independence.

 

[WolfBear]

Here's the exact Gavrilo Princip quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip#Arrest_and_trial

I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria… The plan was to unite all south Slavs. It was understood that Serbia as the free part of the south Slavs had the moral duty to help in the unification, to be to the south Slavs as the Piedmont was to Italy… In my opinion every Serb, Croat and Slovene should be an enemy of Austria

 

[stevep]

If I recall correctly (based on what I read, if my memory is correct), during his trial, Gavrilo Princip, the Serbian nationalist who murdered Franz Ferdinand and his wife in Sarajevo in June 1914, said that he wanted Serbia to become a Balkan version of Piedmont-Sardinia (the Italian city-state which unified Italy in the late 19th century) and to unite all of the South Slavs into one country and under one flag. In turn, this motivated me to ask this question: Which additional realistic cases of "Piedmong-style" national expanionism can you think of, both in real life and in alternate history?

In real life, we had:

-Piedmont-Sardinia serving as a nucleus for Italian unification
-Prussia serving as a nucleus for German unification
-(Farther back) Muscovy serving as a nucleus for Russian unification
-Serbia serving as a nucleus for Yugoslav unification
-Eastern Galicia sort-of serving as a nucleus for Ukrainian unification, at least in regards to spreading Ukrainian nationalism to other parts of Ukraine
-Wallachia and Moldavia serving as a nucleus for Romanian unification

Were there or could there have been any other cases of this? I'm excluding cases such as the US here because the territories west of the 13 Colonies were very sparsely populated other than for Native Americans back when the US acquired its independence.

You could say Wessex, which was the unifying power for England and arguably later the UK. Possibly also the Paris area for France.

 

[WolfBear]

You could say Wessex, which was the unifying power for England and arguably later the UK. Possibly also the Paris area for France.

There's actually a great Netflix series about Wessex unifying England called The Last Kingdom. It's highly worth checking out, IMHO.

Anyway, any other examples of this?

 

[stevep]

There's actually a great Netflix series about Wessex unifying England called The Last Kingdom. It's highly worth checking out, IMHO.

Anyway, any other examples of this?

I saw the 1st series before it went to Netflix and interesting. How accurate about the main character - an Angle who came under Danish control and became a convinced 'pagan' and who had a claim to the throne of Northumbria - or at least Bernicia I don't know.

Its based on a series of books by Bernard_Cornwell who is probably most famous for his Sharpe series.

Sorry about the slow response but been busy with a multi-player game and feeling distinctly knackered the last could of days. Can't think of other cases at the moment.

 

[WolfBear]

I saw the 1st series before it went to Netflix and interesting. How accurate about the main character - an Angle who came under Danish control and became a convinced 'pagan' and who had a claim to the throne of Northumbria - or at least Bernicia I don't know.

Its based on a series of books by Bernard_Cornwell who is probably most famous for his Sharpe series.

Sorry about the slow response but been busy with a multi-player game and feeling distinctly knackered the last could of days. Can't think of other cases at the moment.

This is the Netflix series for this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Kingdom_(TV_series)

What's the other TV series for this? Or do you mean the 1st book series for this?

And Yeah, it's pretty cool how this author decided to write a book series about England's founding. The US already has a lot of fiction written about its own founding, but England much less, so he decided to fix this.

Which multi-player game are you talking about here, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[stevep]

This is the Netflix series for this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Kingdom_(TV_series)

What's the other TV series for this? Or do you mean the 1st book series for this?

And Yeah, it's pretty cool how this author decided to write a book series about England's founding. The US already has a lot of fiction written about its own founding, but England much less, so he decided to fix this.

Which multi-player game are you talking about here, if you don't mind me asking?

The 1st series, which IIRC covered the 1st two books was originally shown on BBC. Actually checking see The_Last_Kingdom, it states that series 2 which roughly covered books 3 & 4 were "This was the final season to air on the BBC, before moving to Netflix. " Coverage started in Oct 2015.

Definitely good to see more on the foundations of the English state. Note there is an error in the wiki article as the northern English were Angles not Saxons and not sure if Alfred is the arrogant religious bigot shown in the episodes although religion definitely played a large part in his life.

The game is Arsenal_of_Democracy, or AoD for short. I've played it solo in the past although not for a few years and got drawn into a multi-player game a year or so back. Its actually a mod of AoD and I was kind of back seat driver for the Japanese player who lured me in and have recently taken over the rump fascist Russia - no I am NOT Vladimir Putin! . Its a large rump state established after the defeat of the USSR, which continued to exist as a state from the Urals roughly east to near the Pacific where a Japanese puppet known as the Far Eastern Republic holds the coast. I say continued to exist as we're in the process of mopping it up after another war. Looking fairly good for the Axis but the Allies are still very powerful and recently an attempted Sealion turned into a disaster - albeit not too costly a one as we cut and ran before committing too many forces.

Great fun but a hell of a challenge compared to playing it solo. Not sure I'll be playing a 2nd campaign as I play another game weekly with a mate and have a lot of solo games I like to play so combined with other activities such as AH sites like this its difficult getting 48 hours in a day.

 

[WolfBear]

The 1st series, which IIRC covered the 1st two books was originally shown on BBC. Actually checking see The_Last_Kingdom, it states that series 2 which roughly covered books 3 & 4 were "This was the final season to air on the BBC, before moving to Netflix. " Coverage started in Oct 2015.

Definitely good to see more on the foundations of the English state. Note there is an error in the wiki article as the northern English were Angles not Saxons and not sure if Alfred is the arrogant religious bigot shown in the episodes although religion definitely played a large part in his life.

The game is Arsenal_of_Democracy, or AoD for short. I've played it solo in the past although not for a few years and got drawn into a multi-player game a year or so back. Its actually a mod of AoD and I was kind of back seat driver for the Japanese player who lured me in and have recently taken over the rump fascist Russia - no I am NOT Vladimir Putin! . Its a large rump state established after the defeat of the USSR, which continued to exist as a state from the Urals roughly east to near the Pacific where a Japanese puppet known as the Far Eastern Republic holds the coast. I say continued to exist as we're in the process of mopping it up after another war. Looking fairly good for the Axis but the Allies are still very powerful and recently an attempted Sealion turned into a disaster - albeit not too costly a one as we cut and ran before committing too many forces.

Great fun but a hell of a challenge compared to playing it solo. Not sure I'll be playing a 2nd campaign as I play another game weekly with a mate and have a lot of solo games I like to play so combined with other activities such as AH sites like this its difficult getting 48 hours in a day.

Alfred doesn't strike me as being an arrogant religious bigot in this series, and I say this as someone who has recently finished watching this entire series--as in, all five seasons of it. Rather, Alfred strikes me as being a noble and decent man in this series.

 

[stevep]

Alfred doesn't strike me as being an arrogant religious bigot in this series, and I say this as someone who has recently finished watching this entire series--as in, all five seasons of it. Rather, Alfred strikes me as being a noble and decent man in this series.

I was thinking of the episode where he replays Uhtred with land as promised for his service but chooses land which is heavily indebted to the church - which IIRC Uhtred paid off by raiding into Cornwall including some christian lands there. Also his continued mistrust of Uhtred and rather overbearing manner to him despite his prolonged loyal service. Plus isn't there an incident where Uhtred rescues a friend who was going to be raped/forced into marriage by some thug and Alfred attacks him over it because Uhtred has to face down the local clergy who are supporting the scum involved. - As I say its a long time since I read this but something like that occurring.

 

[WolfBear]

I was thinking of the episode where he replays Uhtred with land as promised for his service but chooses land which is heavily indebted to the church - which IIRC Uhtred paid off by raiding into Cornwall including some christian lands there. Also his continued mistrust of Uhtred and rather overbearing manner to him despite his prolonged loyal service. Plus isn't there an incident where Uhtred rescues a friend who was going to be raped/forced into marriage by some thug and Alfred attacks him over it because Uhtred has to face down the local clergy who are supporting the scum involved. - As I say its a long time since I read this but something like that occurring.

Do you remember the name of Uhtred's friend who was raped? I know that Uhtred and his gang saved Abbess Hild from being raped, but are you talking about her or about someone else?

 

[stevep]

Do you remember the name of Uhtred's friend who was raped? I know that Uhtred and his gang saved Abbess Hild from being raped, but are you talking about her or about someone else?

Sorry that might have been the case but too long ago. It would have been in the 1st two series as that was while it was still on terrestrial TV and the confrontation was in a church will Alfred criticising Uhtred about it afterwards - think he wanted him to make some apology/pay compensation or something like that. IIRC it was a friend he knew from his childhood but could be remembering that wrongly and she was an acquaintance of such a friend. Unfortunately it would have been about 2015-16 .

Checking what it says about the books on wiki I only find one note for Hild, from the start of book 3 which says

878 – 881: Uhtred of Bebbanburg makes his way back to his native Northumbria seeking revenge against his uncle Ælfric and childhood enemies Sven the One-Eyed and Kjartan the Cruel. He travels by ship with his lover and former nun, Hild. They make landfall near Eoferwic (York) to find the region in chaos. Ivarr Ivarsson, the most powerful Danish lord in Northumbria, has led his army against the Scots in the north. The formerly Danish-held Eoferwic has been conquered by Saxons, who, under the fanatical Father Hrothweard, have begun a massacre of Danes. The central lands of Dunholm are ravaged by Kjartan and Sven, and Bebbanburg remains under the control of Ælfric.

That describes her as his lover and a former nun so was the incident with her in the 1st series and hence 1st two books as there's nothing described there that I could see? Sorry I can't give any more info.

 

[WolfBear]

@stevep Returning to Gavrilo Princip:

Here's the exact Gavrilo Princip quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip#Arrest_and_trial

I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria… The plan was to unite all south Slavs. It was understood that Serbia as the free part of the south Slavs had the moral duty to help in the unification, to be to the south Slavs as the Piedmont was to Italy… In my opinion every Serb, Croat and Slovene should be an enemy of Austria

If one ignores morality and basic human decency, then Gavrilo Princip's calculation actually wasn't that bad. I mean in the sense of using terror to spark a general European war that will result in the fulfillment of his and many other South Slavs' Yugoslav dream. The one thing that they did not anticipate, I think, was the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. Well, that and the extremely massive number of casualties that World War I would result in. But it was the Bolshevik Revolution that was the much more devastating event out of these two things. Other than that, though, they actually succeeded in achieving their Yugoslav dream for a while. It's just a huge shame that so many Eastern Slavs, Jews, and others had to suffer and die in order to achieve this Yugoslav dream, albeit unintentionally.

 

[stevep]

@stevep Returning to Gavrilo Princip:



If one ignores morality and basic human decency, then Gavrilo Princip's calculation actually wasn't that bad. I mean in the sense of using terror to spark a general European war that will result in the fulfillment of his and many other South Slavs' Yugoslav dream. The one thing that they did not anticipate, I think, was the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. Well, that and the extremely massive number of casualties that World War I would result in. But it was the Bolshevik Revolution that was the much more devastating event out of these two things. Other than that, though, they actually succeeded in achieving their Yugoslav dream for a while. It's just a huge shame that so many Eastern Slavs, Jews, and others had to suffer and die in order to achieve this Yugoslav dream, albeit unintentionally.

Did he actually intend to spark a great war or simply 'strike a blow' against the Hapsburg's? I never got the feeling there was some sort of grand plan but could be wrong.

Without WWI its unlikely that the Bolshevik revolution would have occurred, or without the German defeat [and also the Bolshevik revolution ] you would probably never had a Nazis Germany that gets so powerful and destructive in turn.

 

[WolfBear]

Did he actually intend to spark a great war or simply 'strike a blow' against the Hapsburg's? I never got the feeling there was some sort of grand plan but could be wrong.

Without WWI its unlikely that the Bolshevik revolution would have occurred, or without the German defeat [and also the Bolshevik revolution ] you would probably never had a Nazis Germany that gets so powerful and destructive in turn.

AFAIK, he wanted to destroy the Hapsburg Empire through the use of terror but was sort of vague as to how exactly this was going to be accomplished after the act of terror itself was going to be done. Apparently it was an attitude of letting fate do its work/job after he himself committed the relevant evil deed.

And Yep, absolutely correct. Though it's also possible that even with WWI, if there's no Communism in Russia, then there would be no Nazism in Germany. Or at least Nazism would get snuffed out much more quickly even if it would rise to power in Germany. A Fall of France becomes much less likely in an alt-WWII in this TL, for instance. Unless Russia actually decides to take the German side, of course, which is unlikely if Germany still goes Nazi in this TL.

 

[stevep]

AFAIK, he wanted to destroy the Hapsburg Empire through the use of terror but was sort of vague as to how exactly this was going to be accomplished after the act of terror itself was going to be done. Apparently it was an attitude of letting fate do its work/job after he himself committed the relevant evil deed.

And Yep, absolutely correct. Though it's also possible that even with WWI, if there's no Communism in Russia, then there would be no Nazism in Germany. Or at least Nazism would get snuffed out much more quickly even if it would rise to power in Germany. A Fall of France becomes much less likely in an alt-WWII in this TL, for instance. Unless Russia actually decides to take the German side, of course, which is unlikely if Germany still goes Nazi in this TL.

Fully agree on this. If there is a Russia that is diplomatically accepted then a Nazi Germany, especially with its anti-Slav bigotry is likely to be sat on pretty damned quickly.

 

[WolfBear]

Fully agree on this. If there is a Russia that is diplomatically accepted then a Nazi Germany, especially with its anti-Slav bigotry is likely to be sat on pretty damned quickly.

If Russia and Czechoslovakia have a common border here and Russia hasn't purged its military, then the Anglo-French might very well be willing to fight over Czechoslovakia in 1938 in this TL.

 

[stevep]

If Russia and Czechoslovakia have a common border here and Russia hasn't purged its military, then the Anglo-French might very well be willing to fight over Czechoslovakia in 1938 in this TL.

Definitely. Stalin was supposedly willing OTL but lacked that common border and the Poles were understandably unwilling to allow him access either in 38 or 39.

 

[WolfBear]

Definitely. Stalin was supposedly willing OTL but lacked that common border and the Poles were understandably unwilling to allow him access either in 38 or 39.

Yeah, the risk being that once Soviet troops were in Poland they wouldn't leave for a very long time. The events of 1945-1989 proved the Poles right, as did the previous events of 1920.

 

[Ricardolindo]

If I recall correctly (based on what I read, if my memory is correct), during his trial, Gavrilo Princip, the Serbian nationalist who murdered Franz Ferdinand and his wife in Sarajevo in June 1914, said that he wanted Serbia to become a Balkan version of Piedmont-Sardinia (the Italian city-state which unified Italy in the late 19th century) and to unite all of the South Slavs into one country and under one flag. In turn, this motivated me to ask this question: Which additional realistic cases of "Piedmong-style" national expanionism can you think of, both in real life and in alternate history?

In real life, we had:

-Piedmont-Sardinia serving as a nucleus for Italian unification
-Prussia serving as a nucleus for German unification
-(Farther back) Muscovy serving as a nucleus for Russian unification
-Serbia serving as a nucleus for Yugoslav unification
-Eastern Galicia sort-of serving as a nucleus for Ukrainian unification, at least in regards to spreading Ukrainian nationalism to other parts of Ukraine
-Wallachia and Moldavia serving as a nucleus for Romanian unification

Were there or could there have been any other cases of this? I'm excluding cases such as the US here because the territories west of the 13 Colonies were very sparsely populated other than for Native Americans back when the US acquired its independence.

You could have Montenegro somehow form Greater Serbia.

 

[WolfBear]

You could have Montenegro somehow form Greater Serbia.

That makes sense, actually. That could actually work with the right PoD, I think. I just don't know what the right PoD for this is. This doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist, though.