Middle Earth Military Discussion Thread

[Aldarion]

Basically, a thread on discussing anything Middle-Earth/Tolkien related to war.

I will begin by posting some links to the last article I wrote:

Gondor’s War Strategy

The Realm of Gondor was the most important and dangerous of Sauron’s enemies. It was also the closest, and thus the first to be attacked. Yet despite being the greatest military power still o…

militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com

And a question: we know Gondor had a navy only a few decades prior, so what happened to it?

 

[ATP]

Basically, a thread on discussing anything Middle-Earth/Tolkien related to war.

I will begin by posting some links to the last article I wrote:

Gondor’s War Strategy

The Realm of Gondor was the most important and dangerous of Sauron’s enemies. It was also the closest, and thus the first to be attacked. Yet despite being the greatest military power still o…

militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com

And a question: we know Gondor had a navy only a few decades prior, so what happened to it?

I think,that they still have it.
They send sailors which could be spared from Navy to defend Minas Tirith,so they must have some.
In Pelargil,if i remember correctly.
Not very strong,considering that corsairs could sail to Minas Tirith.

 

[Bear Ribs]

There's a few clues about the Gondorian Navy but I'm not aware of any tight explanations. We know the appendices indicate that Aragorn was a skilled sea captain and he led a raid at one point with a "small fleet" so it's apparent some ships existed.

Pelargir was Gondor's primary harbor and it was captured and sacked by the Corsairs of Umbar about 1634. This may have meant most of Gondor's shipbuilding resources were captured and subsequently destroyed, as Pelagir seems to be their main royal harbor. However, this was over a thousand years before the events in Fellowship so it feels unlikely that Gondor wouldn't have gotten around to building a new shipyard in all that time.

It's (barely) plausible that they lost so much institutional knowledge in the sacking and loss of shipyards that they simply never got back into the game seriously and became more of a land force with the Navy being an afterthought. More likely though, they suffered heavy losses beforehand. Some Thorongil fellow, maybe related to Aragorn or something, led a fleet to attack Umbar a before the War of the Ring and captured it, however Umbar was back in Corsair hands by the time the War actually happened. It's much more plausible that when the Corsairs retook Umbar shortly before the war, they inflicted serious losses on the Gondorian Navy in the process and Gondor hadn't had the time and resources to rebuild yet.

It's interesting to note that you can actually see the personalities of each of the generals in Tolkien's writings by their tactics. The Witch-King was highly aggressive and bold, prone to accepting heavier losses for a win than the others. This only makes sense, his supply lines were stretched so thin he had to either win or retreat very quickly. Denethor meanwhile was extremely precise in his tactics and preferred to wait and hit like a hammer when he saw the right opening. Saruman by contrast was clearly painted as an amateur playing a game he didn't fully understand, his tactics were poor and revolved around superweapons and "this one trick is a sure win" tactics with no solid understanding of the fundamentals.

 

[Aldarion]

It's (barely) plausible that they lost so much institutional knowledge in the sacking and loss of shipyards that they simply never got back into the game seriously and became more of a land force with the Navy being an afterthought. More likely though, they suffered heavy losses beforehand. Some Thorongil fellow, maybe related to Aragorn or something, led a fleet to attack Umbar a before the War of the Ring and captured it, however Umbar was back in Corsair hands by the time the War actually happened. It's much more plausible that when the Corsairs retook Umbar shortly before the war, they inflicted serious losses on the Gondorian Navy in the process and Gondor hadn't had the time and resources to rebuild yet.

Thorongil was Aragorn. And if I remember it right, it was outright stated that he could only get a small fleet because Gondor did not have much naval power.

Also, look at Byzantine Empire at how quickly naval know-how can be lost: in 10th century they were a naval superpower, by 11th they had to ask Venice for help.

It's interesting to note that you can actually see the personalities of each of the generals in Tolkien's writings by their tactics. The Witch-King was highly aggressive and bold, prone to accepting heavier losses for a win than the others. This only makes sense, his supply lines were stretched so thin he had to either win or retreat very quickly. Denethor meanwhile was extremely precise in his tactics and preferred to wait and hit like a hammer when he saw the right opening. Saruman by contrast was clearly painted as an amateur playing a game he didn't fully understand, his tactics were poor and revolved around superweapons and "this one trick is a sure win" tactics with no solid understanding of the fundamentals.

Well, with the exception of Saruman, it is less about personalities and more about circumstances. Witch King, as noted, had to take Minas Tirith quickly as any army capable of defeating Gondor would be so large that it couldn't be sustained in the field for very long. Denethor had to be very precise and conservative in his approach as he had only very limited forces available, with his only real advantage being geography and, of course, Minas Tirith.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Thorongil was Aragorn. And if I remember it right, it was outright stated that he could only get a small fleet because Gondor did not have much naval power.

Yeah... that was a joke. I literally mentioned Aragorn doing the raid in the first paragraph.

Also, look at Byzantine Empire at how quickly naval know-how can be lost: in 10th century they were a naval superpower, by 11th they had to ask Venice for help.

I can buy them losing the institutional knowledge quite easily, it's more "not managing to rebuild their knowledge base in a time period longer than the Byzantine Empire existed" that feels like a stretcher to me, especially with the aforementioned Thorongil having a fleet to raid Umbar with, unless those ships were all over a thousand years old* they had to have come from somewhere.

*Okay granted that's not particularly impossible in Middle Earth.

 

[Aldarion]

I can buy them losing the institutional knowledge quite easily, it's more "not managing to rebuild their knowledge base in a time period longer than the Byzantine Empire existed" that feels like a stretcher to me, especially with the aforementioned Thorongil having a fleet to raid Umbar with, unless those ships were all over a thousand years old* they had to have come from somewhere.

Aragorn's attack was a surprise attack against ships in harbor. It might be possible they simply used modified civilian ships. And he didn't actually retake Umbar, he merely went in, burnt the ships, killed as many Corsairs as possible, and went home.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Aragorn's attack was a surprise attack against ships in harbor. It might be possible they simply used modified civilian ships. And he didn't actually retake Umbar, he merely went in, burnt the ships, killed as many Corsairs as possible, and went home.

At that tech level, modified civilian ships are full-fledged warships. The designs for civilian and combat craft didn't dramatically diverge until fairly late in the age of sail, certainly not before gunpowder was a thing. No shipyard of that time period should be capable of building civilian craft without also being able to make warships.

 

[Aldarion]

At that tech level, modified civilian ships are full-fledged warships. The designs for civilian and combat craft didn't dramatically diverge until fairly late in the age of sail, certainly not before gunpowder was a thing. No shipyard of that time period should be capable of building civilian craft without also being able to make warships.

Not really. It all depends on what kind of ships they used. For a sailing ship such as seen in the North Sea (e.g. cog), it would merely be a matter of adding extra superstructure. But galleys - especially ramming galleys such as seen in antiquity - had significant differences between warfighting and trade designs; trade galleys had fewer rowers, were wider and fatter. Even Viking ships had different designs for war (longship) and trade (knarr), though each could be technically used for both.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Not really. It all depends on what kind of ships they used. For a sailing ship such as seen in the North Sea (e.g. cog), it would merely be a matter of adding extra superstructure. But galleys - especially ramming galleys such as seen in antiquity - had significant differences between warfighting and trade designs; trade galleys had fewer rowers, were wider and fatter. Even Viking ships had different designs for war (longship) and trade (knarr), though each could be technically used for both.

Longships were used for both War and Trade. The Knarr was used mainly for trade entirely because it was among the smallest vessels the Vikings ever built, and incapable of carrying enough men to be worthwhile in a fight. Go up a single size to a Karve instead, and they used the exact same design for both war and trade.

"Galley" is an absurdly broad category of ships that were used from around 3000BC all the way to the 19th century across nearly every nation that had a coastline. Everything from oversized canoes to Dromons are considered types of galley, of course you're going to find variations there if you search enough. However through most of its history, the only difference between a War Galley and a Trade Galley was if it had a bronze ram on the front, it's inconceivable that Gondor could be capable of building "trade galleys" but not understand how to make a war galley. Even when galleys were supplanted by Xebecs those still used the same blueprint for trade and combat ships.

Incidentally, Xebecs are my best guess at what Gondor used, the ships we see in the movie look to be based on Xebecs. Galleys in general aren't seaworthy enough to be useful as a blue-water navy Gondor's stated to have, however it also seems unlikely that they'd have the more advanced ships we see by the gunpowder age.

 

[Typhonis]

The question should be what is the technology level of Middle Earth in military matters? What are the prevalent armor and weapon going to be?

In the movies we saw plate but plate is easy to manufacture. In some of Tolkien's wiritings I know they mention armor glinting like fishes scales so could scale armor be the most prominent type? With something like a short sword or gladius as a sidearm? With spears being the main weapon of choice?

 

[Bear Ribs]

Not easy to say for sure. Middle Earth tech doesn't always map perfectly to real life due to A: things being usable and still in perfect condition centuries after it was made and B: Supernaturally skilled crafters sometimes make stuff that wouldn't be possible for mere mortals.

From how it was used, Bilbo's Mithril Shirt would be chainmail, it's unreasonable that scale or a breastplate would be wearable the way the hobbits used it. The Ringwraiths are also described as wearing mail.

We know the troll in Moriah wielded a spear which it stabbed Frodo with but was unable to penetrate the Mithril Shirt. Orcs are stated to use Scimitars, as are the Haradrim. The Witch-King is stated to wield a great black mace in "The Battle of Pellenor Fields." Maces have been used throughout history but were very often a response to heavy armor, so it's a fair guess that armor is generally decent. OTOH scimitars are pretty weak sauce against heavy armor and more apt to appear when it's not as potent. Gimli does specifically say "This is no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are the Uruk-hai, their armor thick and their shields broad" so that's something indicating good armor and shields, but he doesn't state what kind of armor, and generally drawing conclusions about common equipment isn't going to be easy.

This is compounded by the aforementioned tendency of supernaturally skilled crafters to make stuff. IRL we don't really see any magic swords that are ridiculously superior to average craftsmanship. The difference between an IRL really nice sword and a cheap sword are vastly smaller than the differences between a random Orc's crude scimitar and Ringil.

 

[Aldarion]

However through most of its history, the only difference between a War Galley and a Trade Galley was if it had a bronze ram on the front

When we talk about ramming galleys specifically, you simply cannot use the same design for war and trade. Later on it became possible because naval combat turned to boarding actions, but ramming galleys had to be very narrow and very light, but with many rowers. Such a design left literally no useful cargo space.

The question should be what is the technology level of Middle Earth in military matters? What are the prevalent armor and weapon going to be?

In the movies we saw plate but plate is easy to manufacture. In some of Tolkien's wiritings I know they mention armor glinting like fishes scales so could scale armor be the most prominent type? With something like a short sword or gladius as a sidearm? With spears being the main weapon of choice?

Not easy to say for sure. Middle Earth tech doesn't always map perfectly to real life due to A: things being usable and still in perfect condition centuries after it was made and B: Supernaturally skilled crafters sometimes make stuff that wouldn't be possible for mere mortals.

From how it was used, Bilbo's Mithril Shirt would be chainmail, it's unreasonable that scale or a breastplate would be wearable the way the hobbits used it. The Ringwraiths are also described as wearing mail.

We know the troll in Moriah wielded a spear which it stabbed Frodo with but was unable to penetrate the Mithril Shirt. Orcs are stated to use Scimitars, as are the Haradrim. The Witch-King is stated to wield a great black mace in "The Battle of Pellenor Fields." Maces have been used throughout history but were very often a response to heavy armor, so it's a fair guess that armor is generally decent. OTOH scimitars are pretty weak sauce against heavy armor and more apt to appear when it's not as potent. Gimli does specifically say "This is no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are the Uruk-hai, their armor thick and their shields broad" so that's something indicating good armor and shields, but he doesn't state what kind of armor, and generally drawing conclusions about common equipment isn't going to be easy.

This is compounded by the aforementioned tendency of supernaturally skilled crafters to make stuff. IRL we don't really see any magic swords that are ridiculously superior to average craftsmanship. The difference between an IRL really nice sword and a cheap sword are vastly smaller than the differences between a random Orc's crude scimitar and Ringil.

It actually is fairly easy to map: it is Dark Ages and immediate aftermath, which is to say, 8th to 11th centuries.

Plate armor we see in movies is a movie-only invention, and was made largely because large pieces of plastic are easier to cast than thousands of small plastic rings required for mail. But whenever we see armor described in the books, it is mail, or more rarely scale armor. I mean, when Isildur is described as wearing mail and that was before Numenorean technology and know-how had been lost to depths of time, there cannot be much discussion. And when you look at descriptions of weapons and shields, it is clear that what Tolkien had in mind were warriors of Norman or else Byzantine style, with large (kite?) shields, half-helms and mail.

These are the best illustrations I had been able to find:

 

[ATP]

When we talk about ramming galleys specifically, you simply cannot use the same design for war and trade. Later on it became possible because naval combat turned to boarding actions, but ramming galleys had to be very narrow and very light, but with many rowers. Such a design left literally no useful cargo space.




It actually is fairly easy to map: it is Dark Ages and immediate aftermath, which is to say, 8th to 11th centuries.

Plate armor we see in movies is a movie-only invention, and was made largely because large pieces of plastic are easier to cast than thousands of small plastic rings required for mail. But whenever we see armor described in the books, it is mail, or more rarely scale armor. I mean, when Isildur is described as wearing mail and that was before Numenorean technology and know-how had been lost to depths of time, there cannot be much discussion. And when you look at descriptions of weapons and shields, it is clear that what Tolkien had in mind were warriors of Norman or else Byzantine style, with large (kite?) shields, half-helms and mail.

These are the best illustrations I had been able to find:

Indeed.Even dwarves,who supposed to have best armours in third age,used mails.

 

[Husky_Khan]

One of my favorite or most memorable passages from the Return of the King and the whole Lord of the Rings saga was reading about the various assemblies of forces, especially when the Captains of the Outlands mustered their troops to defend Minas Tirith. Also gives some insight on whats happening beyond Minas Tirith and the situation beyond the walls barely touched by the main storyline.

Beyond the Gate there was a crowd of men along the verge of the road and of the great paved space into which all the ways to Minas Tirith ran. All eyes were turned southwards, and soon a murmur rose: 'There is dust away there! They are coming!'....

Horns sounded at some distance, and the noise of cheering rolled towards them like a gathering wind. Then there was a loud trumpet-blast, and all about them people were shouting.

'Forlong! Forlong!' Pippin heard men calling. 'What do they say?' he asked.

'Forlong has come,' Bergil answered; 'old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach.... Hurrah! Here he is. Good old Forlong!'

Leading the line there came walking a big thick-limbed horse, and on it sat a man... old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men, well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor.

'Forlong!' men shouted.... But when the men of Lossarnach had passed they muttered: 'So few! Two hundreds, what are they? We hoped for ten times the number. That will be the new tidings 1 of the black fleet. They are sparing only a tithe of their strength. Still every little is a gain.'

And so the companies came and were hailed and cheered and passed through the Gate, men of the Outlands marching to defend the City of Gondor in a dark hour; but always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked. The men of Ringló Vale behind the son of their lord, Dervorin striding on foot: three hundreds. From the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen. From the Anfalas, the Langstrand far away, a long line of men of many sorts, hunters and herdsmen and men of little villages, scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their lord. From Lamedon, a few grim hillmen without a captain. Fisher-folk of the Ethir, some hundred or more spared from the ships. Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin with three hundreds of gallant green-clad men. And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

And that was all, less than three thousands full told. No more would come....

It's like the assembly of the Greek Forces in the Trojan War or somesuch.

 

[Aldarion]

One of my favorite or most memorable passages from the Return of the King and the whole Lord of the Rings saga was reading about the various assemblies of forces, especially when the Captains of the Outlands mustered their troops to defend Minas Tirith. Also gives some insight on whats happening beyond Minas Tirith and the situation beyond the walls barely touched by the main storyline.



It's like the assembly of the Greek Forces in the Trojan War or somesuch.

Yeah, it is amazing how much Tolkien was able to imply with just a relatively short description.

 

[Aldarion]

Military Organization of Gondor (Expanded)

Geography and organization For mobilizing its armies, Gondor uses a beacon system. This system is similar to that of Byzantine Empire, which had a line of beacons stretching from eastern Anatolia t…

warfantasy.wordpress.com

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

People trying to apply real world tech level to civilizations that built weapons that lasted thousands of years and could maim intangibles.


Gondor is in no way comparable to a real world middle age setting. Aesthetics aside...

People need to treat the LOTR universe the same way they treat Record of Lodoss War or Samurai Jack.

Plate armor we see in movies is a movie-only invention, and was made largely because large pieces of plastic are easier to cast than thousands of small plastic rings required for mail. But whenever we see armor described in the books, it is mail, or more rarely scale armor. I mean, when Isildur is described as wearing mail and that was before Numenorean technology and know-how had been lost to depths of time, there cannot be much discussion. And when you look at descriptions of weapons and shields, it is clear that what Tolkien had in mind were warriors of Norman or else Byzantine style, with large (kite?) shields, half-helms and mail.

Numenor with its solar powered light houses, metal able to damage intangible beings, military power so great the Valar asked their dad to fold the planet around them because they were afraid that if they fought them directly they'd sink Aman into the ocean.

It's skyscrapers and fortresses that even super powered sentient trees that can generate category 4 hurricane like winds by flailing their arms can't break and who tore down a tower three times the size of burje Khalifa.

Nah. They were a medieval society the same way the World Government from One Piece is "just an age of sail" tier society.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Yeah, that is the issue, the difference in power between average Joe and a heroic type in LOTR makes it impossible to judge their tech by our standards, and also would tend to warp how tech works. You have mostly ordinary guys and then this one dude who can straight-up fight 200 orcs and kill them all over the space of a half hour.

This may actually explain some of the wonkier bits of equipment I noted earlier. It's possible the reason the Witch-King is carrying an armor-piercing weapon, while the orcs have weapons designed primarily for lightly armored/unarmored targets, is because the Witch-King is a hero-killer and he's planning his kit around facing targets like Aragorn or Gandalf who might well be packing Mithril armor that could no-sell anything else, while Orcs are built around killing random farmboy levy #672.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Plus the disparity between the third age, second age and first age is so severe they may as well be three entirely different settings.

Yeah, that is the issue, the difference in power between average Joe and a heroic type in LOTR makes it impossible to judge their tech by our standards, and also would tend to warp how tech works.

A caveman-Elf beach bum and a halfbreed demi God built a UFO and killed a Dragon with an ass the size of Manhattan

You have mostly ordinary guys and then this one dude who can straight-up fight 200 orcs and kill them all over the space of a half hour.

Hurin the canonical Manlet one shotting 72 super trolls and being buried under corpses when his weapons melted off his toxic blood.

Mind ye it's less heroic characters vs Joe Blow and more that most of LOTR is subtle in its super human feats until it's suddenly not.

Like if you look at Hobbits. They seem to be naturally gifted with super human aiming skills.

Bilbo killing dog and horse sized Spiders with pebbles like some weed smoking sniper and the like.

And one of the Dunedein Kingdoms used Hobbits as skirmishes and snipers and Scouts historically

You just don't notice how ridiculous all of the above is because the chapters that features Hobbits at length usually revolves around them shooting the shit with Theodin or Aragorn or someone else about genealogy and ganja

Edit- to the point where it's actually kinda jarring. Which I think was Tolkiens point.

 

[Aldarion]

Gondor is in no way comparable to a real world middle age setting. Aesthetics aside...

It is in every way comparable. Mythology and fantasy are both based on real world, with (typically) mostly normal humans, meaning that we can apply real world in every aspect in which they are not explicitly shown to differ from the real world.

Illiad for example - demigods aside, it is actually a fairly realistic, historic representation of the warfare of the era. We get descriptions of weapons and armor that were confirmed by archaeological finds, we see tactics that again were confirmed by what we know of that time period, including early examples of later tactical developments such as phalanx.

And Tolkien did know his history.

People need to treat the LOTR universe the same way they treat Record of Lodoss War or Samurai Jack.

Nope. Because Lord of the Rings is founded on mythology, history and Tolkien's own experiences of war. It is fundamentally a war literature, and in its nature it is in many ways much closer to the books such as All Quiet on the Western Front or Storm of Steel than it is to the Samurai Jack or whatever.

It may be fiction, but not all fiction is the same.

Numenor with its solar powered light houses, metal able to damage intangible beings, military power so great the Valar asked their dad to fold the planet around them because they were afraid that if they fought them directly they'd sink Aman into the ocean.

It's skyscrapers and fortresses that even super powered sentient trees that can generate category 4 hurricane like winds by flailing their arms can't break and who tore down a tower three times the size of burje Khalifa.

Nah. They were a medieval society the same way the World Government from One Piece is "just an age of sail" tier society.

With the exception of The Lost Road, which contradicts literally everything else, there is none of any of this in Tolkien's writings. So please ease up on the strawmans.

Valar also didn't ask Illuvatar (who is not their "dad") to fold the planet because they were afraid of Numenoreans - but rather because they had no authority to dole out punishment against the Children of Illuvatar. Thus they laid down their government of Arda and interceded to one person who did have such authority - Illuvatar, that is, God himself.

This is literally written in Letter 156:
“The Valar had no real answer to this monstruous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world.”

Yeah, that is the issue, the difference in power between average Joe and a heroic type in LOTR makes it impossible to judge their tech by our standards, and also would tend to warp how tech works. You have mostly ordinary guys and then this one dude who can straight-up fight 200 orcs and kill them all over the space of a half hour.

Which would be why the tech of Illiad is impossible to judge...? Not really. As I have noted, we have a fairly good idea of what weapons and armors were described by Homer, and these were actually confirmed by archeology.

random farmboy levy #672.

Which would be minority of the forces actually facing them, so...