Karma vs. collection of quest outcomes game narrative.

[Agent23]

So I was playing some Dishonored recently(They were all on sale on GoG, sue me!), and once again I had to deal with a game that has a karma system, much like the Metro series.

Whenever I encounter a karma system I think that it is a lazy, nagging way to play a story out and that more narrative, quest-based story development like what we've had in Fallout for example is much more satisfying and adds a lot more nuance.
It also forces you to make a binary choice about the game whereas choosing between various factions and NPCs is a lot more satisfying in the end, when you get the long final narration.

So, thoughts?

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

IIRC City of Heroes/Villains had a Rogue expansion where you could dance around in between good and evil with varying shades of grey and there were incentives to do so. In most games with a binary morality system you have to either go full good or full evil to get the rewards. I overall prefer just having multiple choices like you said, though.

 

[Agent23]

IIRC City of Heroes/Villains had a Rogue expansion where you could dance around in between good and evil with varying shades of grey and there were incentives to do so. In most games with a binary morality system you have to either go full good or full evil to get the rewards. I overall prefer just having multiple choices like you said, though.

Yeah, this!
Dunno if you have tried the the Metro 203X series, but it is a prime example of this.
Good shooter, but IMHO the karma system was mostly redundant.
And it is not like the series is book-faithful, anyway!

At most, they get to tell you they are giving you two endings while being extremely lazy about it, so it is also cheating.

 

[ParadiseLost]

I think the comparison between Dishonored and Metro 2033 is silly.

Dishonored's system is very straightforward. You kill more people? High chaos. Kill less people? Low chaos. Its basically the same result as a quest outcome anyway. All you need to do is kill more or less people.

Metro 2033, meanwhile? It would be incredibly hard to get the good ending with lots of luck or a guide, as it relies on things like listening to certain conversations, finding certain secret areas, and sparing very specific enemies.

 

[Agent23]

I think the comparison between Dishonored and Metro 2033 is silly.

Dishonored's system is very straightforward. You kill more people? High chaos. Kill less people? Low chaos. Its basically the same result as a quest outcome anyway. All you need to do is kill more or less people.

Metro 2033, meanwhile? It would be incredibly hard to get the good ending with lots of luck or a guide, as it relies on things like listening to certain conversations, finding certain secret areas, and sparing very specific enemies.

Both a re bullshit.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Bioshock, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are probably the most basic in this. The second is more nuanced though and certain slides depend how you completed the missions. Also karma is less relevant unless you want to hang with Rose of Sharon Cassidy.

I think the comparison between Dishonored and Metro 2033 is silly.

Dishonored's system is very straightforward. You kill more people? High chaos. Kill less people? Low chaos. Its basically the same result as a quest outcome anyway. All you need to do is kill more or less people.

Metro 2033, meanwhile? It would be incredibly hard to get the good ending with lots of luck or a guide, as it relies on things like listening to certain conversations, finding certain secret areas, and sparing very specific enemies.

When I was a complete schizo for PS3 achievement it was difficult to get the canon ending of Metro Last Light but I would say it made the game have some replayability!

 

[Pocky Balboa]

No "Depends on the type of game" choice?

 

[Agent23]

No "Depends on the type of game" choice?

Sorry, but IMHO if you have a pure karma system that will inevitably make the game worse.Even a linear one annoys me less.
I prefer to fight for a concrete set of outcomes than 'he a gud boi' or Mad Doge off a leash, thank you.

Also, I think the other choices cover what you ask for.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I tend to give the sideeye to karma systems because I feel like they always tend towards odd results like "You murdered and ate five, but also helped 200 little old ladies cross the street. Your ranking is: Saintly."

Additionally, I feel like there's a distinct tendency for game-makers to make the Evil karma rewards significantly better than the Good ones. I'm not sure why but it certainly feels like it, granted I didn't do a scientific survey of things or anything. This tends to drive said odd results because the players will want this one evil item that's just so much better than the good one, so they have to grind more helping little old ladies across the street to make up for eating that baby to get the evil wizard robes that have better bonuses.

 

[Agent23]

I tend to give the sideeye to karma systems because I feel like they always tend towards odd results like "You murdered and ate five, but also helped 200 little old ladies cross the street. Your ranking is: Saintly."

Additionally, I feel like there's a distinct tendency for game-makers to make the Evil karma rewards significantly better than the Good ones. I'm not sure why but it certainly feels like it, granted I didn't do a scientific survey of things or anything. This tends to drive said odd results because the players will want this one evil item that's just so much better than the good one, so they have to grind more helping little old ladies across the street to make up for eating that baby to get the evil wizard robes that have better bonuses.

Tell me about it, for the lulz I decided to be a cannibalistic, murderous asshole but get all the good quest endings in FO3.
You should have heard how 3Dog hated on the murderous freak from vault 111 for saving an orphanage full of children.

 

[Doomsought]

Quest outcomes are incredibly difficult to code for, but are rewarding if you can do them right. The absolute best outcome is if you can make the game narrative an emergent phenomena, this work best in multiplayer games like EVE and Space Station 13.

However, Karma system can work if you use them correctly. One example of this is the first Bioshock, at first glance the source of the Karma may seem shallow, however around midgame it is revealed that the player character is mind controlled, and what you do with the little sisters is the only actual choice the player character has ever made during the game, possible during their entire life. As exemplified by Bioshock, to make a karma system work, you need to deconstruct the concept and then reconstruct it in a way that ties it directly to the players agency in the game.

 

[Pocky Balboa]

Sorry, but IMHO if you have a pure karma system that will inevitably make the game worse.Even a linear one annoys me less.
I prefer to fight for a concrete set of outcomes than 'he a gud boi' or Mad Doge off a leash, thank you.

Good for you. I say otherwise. F'rex, using games in the same franchise, Ogre Battle: MotBQ and Tactics Ogre:LUCT would be worse if it did scenario based like Tactics Ogre:KoL rather than karma-based.

Also, I think the other choices cover what you ask for.

No, I don't think so Tim.