Karl Franz vs God Emperor of Mankind
- Thread starter Aldarion
- Start date
Not an answer to your question but... I wish I read more stuff with Karl Franz in it. I read the novels about Sigmar not too long ago and he seemed like quite the Leader, which I guess shouldn't be too surprising. I doubt he'd do a better job of running a modern day country... but then again... maybe he would. He had the temperment for it at least and could bring out the best in people.
I would say Sigmar is a better ruler and a better person. He's far from perfect but he's still good. He has vision and ambition and is personally brave and listens to counsel and has confidence in his lieutenants and brings out the best in others which is something that, in Scenario Three, he might be able to do with the Primarchs. Sigmar was passionate though, and was tempermental at times but even at his most heated, would listen to others. If he approached the Primarchs like he did the original tribal leaders that founded the Empire, I feel like he'd do a better job. If he couldn't win them over to his vision it'd likely be due to circumstances beyond his control.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Emps, obviously.
On account of him being millennia old and physically superior as compared to a normal human, and probably the strongest psyker around.
And he had knowledge of very advanced tech.
Also, I don't have the slightest idea what this Karl guy can do because I don't know anything about WH: Fantasy.
I have some dim recollections of Arch covering him, but he sounds like a much smaller fish from an infinitely smaller pond.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Karl Franz is a smaller fish yes, but that is not really relevant here.
Because from what I have seen, one of major problems with Emperor is his inability to relate to humans. So Franz may well be a better ruler. He is very good at politics, and from what I have seen of him, unlike the Emperor he actually understands human nature.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
How about posthuman(Space Marine/Primarch) and chaos god nature?
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Posthuman nature is... human nature. Good part of the reason why half the Primarchs rebelled was because Emperor treated them as tools and not as people.
Chaos gods are frankly closer to the Emperor, but even there the Emperor fundamentally misunderstood their nature.
An interesting thought this brings up in regards to how alienating the God Emperor of Mankind is almost seems like a natural outgrowth of various Great Men in History, especially in regards to Conquerors and other visionaries. A lot of great leaders did display great camaraderie with their men from Alexander and Caesar to Napoleon and Patton, but mentally and emotionally seemed a level apart from the Men they commanded.
A nice anecdote I read once from a biography on MacArthur was that he followed baseball, not so much because he was interested in the sport but so when interacting with his troops, whom he obviously cared a great deal for, he could actually seem to be a relatable human being to them, which he really was not.
Now you can stretch that out across thirty millenia lifetime into the future across a galactic scale with all of the baggage the God Emperor was apparently carrying up to that point and, you get a deeply flawed God-Emperor at least when it comes to being relatable to even posthuman types.
From what I've read of Karl Franz, he does have a lot of the similar qualities of the mortal Sigmar (which makes sense considering what happens in that ridiculous End Times lore with him being an incarnation of Sigmar or whatever but I digress). He's able to win over people that are opposed to him. He has a vision. He's a unifying and wants to be a Shield of Civilization. He makes those around him better. He won over the cooperation of Thorgrim the Dwarf High King, King Louen of Bretonnia, Tsarina Katarin of Kislev and even his rival from a different Imperial faith, the Elector Count of Middenland Boris Todbringer.
It is said the God Emperor is a "Humanitarian" in some cases in the lore, along with his many other titles and honorifics, but Sigmar and Karl Franz display far more Humanity and that might just be due to how their drastically different lives give them greatly different perspectives.
A nice anecdote I read once from a biography on MacArthur was that he followed baseball, not so much because he was interested in the sport but so when interacting with his troops, whom he obviously cared a great deal for, he could actually seem to be a relatable human being to them, which he really was not.
Now you can stretch that out across thirty millenia lifetime into the future across a galactic scale with all of the baggage the God Emperor was apparently carrying up to that point and, you get a deeply flawed God-Emperor at least when it comes to being relatable to even posthuman types.
From what I've read of Karl Franz, he does have a lot of the similar qualities of the mortal Sigmar (which makes sense considering what happens in that ridiculous End Times lore with him being an incarnation of Sigmar or whatever but I digress). He's able to win over people that are opposed to him. He has a vision. He's a unifying and wants to be a Shield of Civilization. He makes those around him better. He won over the cooperation of Thorgrim the Dwarf High King, King Louen of Bretonnia, Tsarina Katarin of Kislev and even his rival from a different Imperial faith, the Elector Count of Middenland Boris Todbringer.
It is said the God Emperor is a "Humanitarian" in some cases in the lore, along with his many other titles and honorifics, but Sigmar and Karl Franz display far more Humanity and that might just be due to how their drastically different lives give them greatly different perspectives.
1.Karl
2.Karl
3.Depend - if Karl could learn quickly about technology,and get Emprah power,against he would be better.
4.Karl.
It was really easy - Emprah is overpowered idiot,so any ruler would do better with his powers.
Well,except some polish Kings and premiers,well,not only polish.
Biden would be worst,too.
King Arts
Well-known member
What does being really strong have to do with being a good ruler?
Do you think Goku would be a great president for you?
If they swapped, GEoM would utterly dominate the setting in a short while, and Franz, well, he would be one decently competent planetary ruler, in a world of many, he could not hold up IoM any more than a decent high lord or sector governor could.
As others mentioned, GEoM may be a protector of humanity, but since his days as separate "shamans" before uniting in one body, he is in some ways separated from human limits, experiences and nature in a definite way. He is an unaging superhuman gestalt consciousness of many people with mental and warp powers encroaching on godlike territory while being material unlike the warp gods, while Franz is just a man. Probably a better ruler than most men, but still a man with all the limits and nature implied in that. GEoM in some ways is closer to a benevolent unrestrained AI, if not exceeding it with his physics defying powers, than to a man.
As a ruler, it's no contest, he is as beyond any man by such a margin that it's hard to find a comparison. As a person, Franz wins by default on account of clearly fitting our conventional definition of a human person, which GEoM ascends out of it in several significant ways.
Last edited:
King Arts
Well-known member
Pretty stupid AI though.
Also normal humans have ruled the Imperium the high lords for example.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Strength, intelligence, the wisdom thet comes with age, psychic abilities, precog.
Emps is much more powerful, knowledgeable and competent.
He managed to turn a few technonarbariwns I to a galactic empire that stood for tens of thousands of years.
Some rando Prussian expy from a backwards fantasy world can not step on Emps' little finger.
This whole muh emprah is inhumane sounds like LinkedIn managerial gibberish.
With precog and pysxhic abilities and an intelect that dwarfs any other Emps can easily root our mere morals thst might become a problem.
Going back to stuff like The Last Church, he was described as an exceedingly capable politician that was beloved by all.
We are talking about the guy that had to put in effort to prevent people from deifying him.
I think Emps had fsr better people management skills and charisma than people give him credit for.
King Arts
Well-known member
He doesn’t show that intelligence though as you can see from his interactions with Angron, and Lorgar.
Also if Franz had the same biggatons as the emperor he’d smack the shit out of Emps and make a way better empire.
The last church where the dictator who took over the earth spouts Reddit tier arguments in favor of atheism. Yes much wisdom and intellect, knowledge and competence.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
They were made to be tools/completely loyal, between that and precog, I think that Emps thought he had the upper hand/full control.
Sadly, chaos was the bigger problem.
You are not providing evidence Warcraft Freidric DER Grosse would do better.
Emps would see it coming and fry the guy's brains with his psyker abilities.
I am talking about the day he was seen by the populace in general, he was loves and respected by the majority of people, and he managed to win against foes with more resources.
Conquering first a desolate, post apocalyptic hellhole of a planet, then turning that into a galactic empire.
And every step of the day, the masses of people adored him and cheered him on.
That is more impressive than Gustavus Adolphus in Warcraft.
King Arts
Well-known member
Earth was not that apocalyptic it and Mars were the most powerful planets as they were the center of the old human empire. Also you aren’t showing anything, I can point to concrete examples where the emperor pissed off and alienated his sons his generals who he needs to prosecute a war and conquest.I am talking about the day he was seen by the populace in general, he was loves and respected by the majority of people, and he managed to win against foes with more resources.
Conquering first a desolate, post apocalyptic hellhole of a planet, then turning that into a galactic empire.
And every step of the day, the masses of people adored him and cheered him on.
That is more impressive than Gustavus Adolphus in Warcraft.
Managed, not ruled, with the Emperor present, focusing his attention on the things they could not possibly do.
His disregard for matters of human character may well stem from his nature being very different as a gestalt consciousness with demigod powers. After tens of thousands of years, he may well just struggle to remember human scale matters, problems, emotions.
The primarchs are closer to normal people than to GEoM in that regard, so their emotions, dramas and personalities are more familiar and understandable to us than they would be to him. Perhaps he expected them to be more like him, wished for his "sons" to be closer to his "weight class" as a being, but projected his wishful thinking over the matter of fact.
For him, this stuff would be not unlike you wondering about your dog yapping at the postman and chasing bicycles. For dogs, those are perfectly sensible things and major parts of their lives, for you, it's pointless dog behavior caused by its very limited mental faculties.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
When empires fall it is the old capitol/central are athst usually gets hit the hardest.
Earth was depends on its colonies and sank into thousands of years of techno barbarism and chaos.
Even TLC shows that.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Bolded part is actually why I think Franz may be better ruler than GEoM.
I somehow do not see him mismanaging his "sons" the way GEoM seems to have.
StormEagle
Well-known member
One of the main problems with the Emperor boils down to one of the main problems with the Horus Heresy in general.
Inconsistent characterization.
Which makes sense, because of the nature of Black Library. There’s so many different authors writing so many different characters, shit is bound to get jumbled up.
In one of Mortarian’s books, I believe it’s called the Pale King, the interaction he has with Big E paints a very different picture to the one we got in Master of Mankind or the First Heretic. Same with when Perturabo talked with him.
In both of those instances, he comes across as far more human than in others. He comes across more as a father than, say, his interactions with Angron or Lorgar.
Fundamentally speaking, the Big E isn’t really what we’d call a character. He’s more like a plot device or set dressing for whatever given author is writing him at the time.
As a character/person, I like Karl better. He’s more consistent, whereas the Emperor can almost come across as schizophrenic from one book to another.
I don’t know if he’d be able to handle the WH40k universe any better than Emps, besides maybe not being as bad with some of the Primarchs.
Inserting the Emperor into fantasy is rather pointless, because he’d basically nuke the setting. Asking if he’d be a better ruler than Karl is rather pointless, when he just starts marching into chaos/skaven/vampire/ork strongholds and cleansing them in not holy fire.
Inconsistent characterization.
Which makes sense, because of the nature of Black Library. There’s so many different authors writing so many different characters, shit is bound to get jumbled up.
In one of Mortarian’s books, I believe it’s called the Pale King, the interaction he has with Big E paints a very different picture to the one we got in Master of Mankind or the First Heretic. Same with when Perturabo talked with him.
In both of those instances, he comes across as far more human than in others. He comes across more as a father than, say, his interactions with Angron or Lorgar.
Fundamentally speaking, the Big E isn’t really what we’d call a character. He’s more like a plot device or set dressing for whatever given author is writing him at the time.
As a character/person, I like Karl better. He’s more consistent, whereas the Emperor can almost come across as schizophrenic from one book to another.
I don’t know if he’d be able to handle the WH40k universe any better than Emps, besides maybe not being as bad with some of the Primarchs.
Inserting the Emperor into fantasy is rather pointless, because he’d basically nuke the setting. Asking if he’d be a better ruler than Karl is rather pointless, when he just starts marching into chaos/skaven/vampire/ork strongholds and cleansing them in not holy fire.
Probably. He may mismanage them in different ways though. And without GEoM's insane powers he would bigger issues with ambitions of some.
Though hard to say if he would have created them in the first place.
Isn't being schizophrenic in fact an intended part of his characterization? GEoM is a pile of ancient psychic humans wearing the same body and pretending to be one demigod, of course it's schizophrenic. Depending on all sorts of factors and how much attention is GEoM paying to the conversation you may be talking to a very different part of him.