Japan Teleported to Western Atlantic in 1650 - goodbye Sakoku, goodbye Anglo-America?

[raharris1973]

What if ASBs teleported Japan to off the east coast of North America, a mere 14 years after the Sakoku decrees of 1636. Japan is moved longitudinally but remains on the same latitudes as OTL. For the best "fit" near North America, Hokkaido remains behind, but Honshu, Shikoku, Kyushu, Tsushima and the Ryukyu islands including Okinawa are transported.



The northern extreme of Honshu is a couple hundred miles east from Cape Cod. The western extreme of Kyushu is a couple hundred miles east of Cape Hatteras. Okinawa is a bit northeast of the Bahamas. Bermuda remains in place, bracketing Japan in the east, within a hundred miles or less southeast of the Kanto plain.

Japan is now on an increasingly busy Atlantic seaway. It still has vibrant coastal shipping and so do various European powers. The populations are vastly unbalanced, with the European North American seaboard colonies all less than 50 years and usually less than 30 years old and thinly populated, the natives devastated by disease, and Japan having a huge population and massive cultivation. There are going to be encounters, and both sides will have to get used to it.








The Gulf Stream flows northeast, even while it splits and washes the shores, and continues on to northwest Europe. The ASB makes sure of that and that weather, climate and seasonal effects are all non-catastrophic.

What wackiness ensues in the the development of Tokugawa Japan and the native and European societies of the Americas? What of the wider world?

Here is the hole left in East Asia. There's one Japanese domain left on the southern shores of Hokkaido/Ezo, the Matsumae Domain. The Koreans notice trade contact stops, the Chinese (when they have a moment to look up from the wars of the Qing conquest and consolidation) notice no tribute missions are coming anymore from the Ryukyu Kingdom. There lives will change too.



I do not think Sakoku could survive this event. If Japan is unwilling to accommodate trade with the Atlantic powers it will need to expand to the North American coast to kick them out. The Japanese could win, the English, Dutch, Swedes, maybe even French could find their colonial position in North America untenable and evacuate most of their colonists.

 

[WolfBear]

Yeah, I was also thinking of the Japanese finding willing allies in the form of various Native American tribes. Both of them would view Europeans as outsiders and thus seek to expel them from the Americas, after all. I also wonder if Japan might aim to use North America as its own Lebensraum once it itself will have a population explosion.

 

[Atarlost]

Yeah, I was also thinking of the Japanese finding willing allies in the form of various Native American tribes.

I don't think the Amerinds find a willing ally in Japan. Judging by the way they treated the Ainu they have more in common with the Europeans.

 

[WolfBear]

I don't think the Amerinds find a willing ally in Japan. Judging by the way they treated the Ainu they have more in common with the Europeans.

Though sometimes the enemy of my enemy can be my friend, no? Though I suppose that the Japanese can always stab the Amerinds in the back later on, after the Europeans are successfully dealt with.

 

[Atarlost]

Though sometimes the enemy of my enemy can be my friend, no? Though I suppose that the Japanese can always stab the Amerinds in the back later on, after the Europeans are successfully dealt with.

That requires that the Japanese see them as worthy of respect. Look into the treatment of the Ainu for how Japan in that period would treat other primitive cultures.

 

[ATP]

That requires that the Japanese see them as worthy of respect. Look into the treatment of the Ainu for how Japan in that period would treat other primitive cultures.

True,but they conqer them anyway.With all british/french/sweden colonies there,too.
What next? probably wars with Spain over Mexico - but,spaniards could hold them there.Spain and France would stop their war/in OTL,they fought till 1659/ and go save their colonies - which they could ,partially do.

Since Japan was antichristian,not anticatholics only,it would change future politics - all european countries would be their enemies.

 

[Chiron]

Japan can deploy larger more effective gunpowder armies than Europe can at this time and thus the Americas fall under their sway which fucks Europe if their gold and silver trade gets disrupted. If they focus on the Americas and fighting a peer foe for them, the Europeans leave themselves vulnerable to the Ottomans. You could even see the Ottomans and Tokugawas allying as well.

This in turn could really screw up European power balances.

 

[raharris1973]

True,but they conqer them anyway.With all british/french/sweden colonies there,too.
What next? probably wars with Spain over Mexico - but,spaniards could hold them there.Spain and France would stop their war/in OTL,they fought till 1659/ and go save their colonies - which they could ,partially do.

Since Japan was antichristian,not anticatholics only,it would change future politics - all european countries would be their enemies.

They managed to get along with the Dutch, at least in small, controlled doses.

Japan can deploy larger more effective gunpowder armies than Europe can at this time and thus the Americas fall under their sway which fucks Europe if their gold and silver trade gets disrupted.

So you are thinking not just dominating North America from east to west, but the Americas, from north to south, knocking down and absorbing the Spanish Empire?

If they focus on the Americas and fighting a peer foe for them, the Europeans leave themselves vulnerable to the Ottomans.

Interesting concept. I would tend to think though that Ottoman logistical reach will always tend to have enough limits that certain territories, such as Scandinavia, Britain, The Netherlands, France, and the Iberian Peninsula, will always be outside Ottoman's effective ability to conquer.

You could even see the Ottomans and Tokugawas allying as well.

This in turn could really screw up European power balances.

I could imagine this, especially if the French joined in, keeping their Ottoman tie, and adding a Japanese one, using the the Ottoman and Japanese connections to aggressively weaken and grind down all imperial pretensions of their Habsburg and English enemies. These three could be even more formidable if they enlist the Dutch as a fourth. Or simply crush the Dutch. Territorially, with their more northern based interests, the French should have an easier time deconflicting with the Japanese.

 

[Atarlost]

True,but they conqer them anyway.

WolfBear said they would ally with them not conquer them.

 

[Chiron]

So you are thinking not just dominating North America from east to west, but the Americas, from north to south, knocking down and absorbing the Spanish Empire?



Interesting concept. I would tend to think though that Ottoman logistical reach will always tend to have enough limits that certain territories, such as Scandinavia, Britain, The Netherlands, France, and the Iberian Peninsula, will always be outside Ottoman's effective ability to conquer.



I could imagine this, especially if the French joined in, keeping their Ottoman tie, and adding a Japanese one, using the the Ottoman and Japanese connections to aggressively weaken and grind down all imperial pretensions of their Habsburg and English enemies. These three could be even more formidable if they enlist the Dutch as a fourth. Or simply crush the Dutch. Territorially, with their more northern based interests, the French should have an easier time deconflicting with the Japanese.

1. Enough critical areas that the entire European presence collapses and is absorbed.

2. Depends on whether the right leaders with administrative skills and talent arise. But Ottoman conquest of Austria and holding off the Poles is certainly feasible. If they become too threatening, France or the Tokugawas could throw some money at Persia to stir shit up.

3. Yes and also likely that the mess of Alliances cause another series of shit kicking contests across Europe in which an Ally one day is an enemy the next day.

Either way Europe will undergo another escalated long war without the gold and silver flows from the Americas. And that will fuck it in terms of financing their wars. They would have to raise troops from local levies which was more expensive than hiring mercenaries, which in turn means risking revolts, which in turn starts another shit storm when Europe doesn't need one. But they would not have a choice in the mater if they want to sustain high attrition rates to win.

Either way the Mercenary Groups are going to make a killing one way or another.

 

[ATP]

WolfBear said they would ally with them not conquer them.

They do not allied with Ainu,but used them.
About spanish empire in America - they would take some of it,but not all,or even most.Indians there were good fighters and loyal to spanish.Good cathoics,too - thanks to Holy Mary.

 

[raharris1973]

About spanish empire in America - they would take some of it,but not all,or even most

How much of it do you think?

a) Florida, Cuba, Santo-Domingo/Hispaniola, Puerto-Rico?
b) A plus everything in the Gulf Coast to Texas and the Rio Grande
c) a) and b) plus all of Mexico and Central America, but not South America
d) a), b), and c) plus Gran Colombia, the north Caribbean coast of South America, but not Peru and and Argentina-Chile?

 

[ATP]

How much of it do you think?

a) Florida, Cuba, Santo-Domingo/Hispaniola, Puerto-Rico?
b) A plus everything in the Gulf Coast to Texas and the Rio Grande
c) a) and b) plus all of Mexico and Central America, but not South America
d) a), b), and c) plus Gran Colombia, the north Caribbean coast of South America, but not Peru and and Argentina-Chile?

a and b,Mexico would hold thanks to Holy Mother which appear in Guadelupe.Indians there knew how to fight - and they would fight for Our Queen.