Iron Revolution in Michigan 2500 BCE

[Agent23]

Any chance of them developing an actual Industrial Revolution? Or at least proto-industrialization as in Song China?

IMHO they'd need to domesticate some livestock for that, also develop writing, which came about thanks to agriculture.
Without some form of beast of burden, they would have massive trouble expanding inland or building anything more than a kilometer or two from the nearest longship port.

Which reminds me, duckduckgoing tame buffalo yielded this:


Obviously Chukcha Illegal migrant was lying through his teeth, or his ancestors were too lazy and didn't even try domesticate huge ugly very south-eastern Siberia big humpy moo-cow, or they were just getting high on peace pipes all the time.

Humor aside, I am pretty sure that with enough time investment, these monsters can be made into useful beasts of burden.

 

[ATP]

Any chance of them developing an actual Industrial Revolution? Or at least proto-industrialization as in Song China?

If Great Michianger was creator of new religion who would support that,then yes.Remember,industrial revolution was possible becouse people who made it was christians.

 

[Chiron]

Any chance of them developing an actual Industrial Revolution? Or at least proto-industrialization as in Song China?

If they can get solid control of the Mississippi River Basin and have the institutional organization to utilize waterflow as the power source for tools, then yes.

 

[Bear Ribs]

IMHO they'd need to domesticate some livestock for that, also develop writing, which came about thanks to agriculture.
Without some form of beast of burden, they would have massive trouble expanding inland or building anything more than a kilometer or two from the nearest longship port.

Which reminds me, duckduckgoing tame buffalo yielded this:


Obviously Chukcha Illegal migrant was lying through his teeth, or his ancestors were too lazy and didn't even try domesticate huge ugly very south-eastern Siberia big humpy moo-cow, or they were just getting high on peace pipes all the time.

Humor aside, I am pretty sure that with enough time investment, these monsters can be made into useful beasts of burden.

Lemme note real quick, you're running into the difference between tame and domesticated. Most creatures, even invertebrates, can be tamed which just makes them accustomed to humans. However tamed animals are still prone to wild instincts and can be very, very dangerous. It's for good reason the narrator in that video keeps stressing how hideously dangerous that dude's decisions regarding the buffalo were. Many, many people have been killed by their tamed pet tigers. Being accustomed to humans and even willing to obey commands doesn't mean they lose their wild instincts and won't turn on you if something twigs those instincts.

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Domesticated animals have been bred to actually inherently get along with humans and have a temperament suitable to be used as livestock, pets, or animal labor. This is actually tremendously difficult and requires that the animal already have at least some genetic predisposition to get along with humans in the first place, else you have nothing to work with and breed in the first place. Hence, domesticated horses but nobody can domesticate zebras as I mentioned before. In fact, there're only around 31 animals in the entire world that are considered domesticated.

Bison can be tamed but nobody's been able to domesticate them. The dude might be able to get the bison to sit in a car but he's enduring horrific risk doing it and the bison's not pulling a plow. Perhaps he could get it to do so, but it would still be very dangerous. Yaks are generally extremely similar to bison in build, lifestyle, and even genetics but they can be domesticated where bison cannot, because yaks are not prone to sudden panic and violence when startled. Bison and zebras are, and that's very bad for domestication.

 

[Captain X]

That Bison is most likely a hybrid that has been crossbred with cattle. Like I mentioned very early on in this thread.

 

[bintananth]

Dogs are not large enough to be heavy draft animals and not really built for it either.

You've never met a Husky or Malemute that just wants to run.

They do not get tired.

EDIT: Wolves and Dogs are the only animals which actually can keep up with humans over extremely long distances they even they can't keep up when it's hot and humid.

 

[Agent23]

Lemme note real quick, you're running into the difference between tame and domesticated.

Point taken, however IMHO I think the difference is a few generations of selective breeding.
Keep in mind that attempts to domesticate these humpy moocows have been going on for, what, 200 years at most, with lots of alternate livestock around and hence diminishing returns.
Given time and effort, IMO the Michiganders will be able to select out the beneficial, tamable Buffalo and breed them into something smaller and more domestic.
It might take 200 years, it might take 300-400 years, but close proximity to a more advanced human civilization with better weapons will kull the more aggressive ones, then selective breeding will do the rest.
We really don't know how long it took for cows were domesticated, for example.
Like with wolves and dogs.

You've never met a Husky or Malemute that just wants to run.

They do not get tired.


EDIT: Wolves and Dogs are the only animals which actually can keep up with humans over extremely long distances they even they can't keep up when it's hot and humid.

I think the problem with dogs would be the fact that they are predators, they need lots of meat, which means farming something else, they IMO have a much faster, energy intensive matabloism kilo for kilo compared to cows.
Bigger, stronger dogs will mean even bigger food consumption.
Also, cow/oxen/etc double as food and milk-giving animals.

Could it be possible for them to breed Alpacas at Llamas at one point?

 

[bintananth]

I think the problem with dogs would be the fact that they are predators, they need lots of meat, which means farming something else, they IMO have a much faster, energy intensive matabloism kilo for kilo compared to cows.

Humans are also Apex Predators. Here's the list of land mammal apex predators by average weight:

Polar Bears
Brown Bears
Tigers
Lions
Jaguars, Humans, Black Bears, Leopards, Cougars, Hyenas, Wolves, and Cheetahs (there's a lot overlap here. We're the most dangerous one and I might be forgetting a few).

 

[Agent23]

Humans are also Apex Predators. Here's the list of land mammal apex predators by average weight:

Polar Bears
Brown Bears
Tigers
Lions
Jaguars, Humans, Black Bears, Leopards, Cougars, Hyenas, Wolves, and Cheetahs (there's a lot overlap here and we're the most dangerous one).

We are omnivores, though.

 

[bintananth]

We are omnivores, though.

Brown and black bears are also omnivores, as are dogs (and wolves ... sorta).

 

[Agent23]

Brown and black bears are also omnivores, as are dogs (and wolves ... sorta).

As Chiron said, there ain't enough vodka and cigarettes to do that.
Then again, he was referencing a Polish bear, those probably work for more.

 

[bintananth]

As Chiron said, there ain't enough vodka and cigarettes to do that.
Then again, he was referencing a Polish bear, those probably work for more.

This one:

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www.badassoftheweek.com

Back on topic: for an Iron revolution to have occurred circa 2500BCE the locals would have needed to mass produce charcoal.

 

[ATP]

This one:

Voytek the Soldier Bear — Badass of the Week

www.badassoftheweek.com

Back on topic: for an Iron revolution to have occurred circa 2500BCE the locals would have needed to mass produce charcoal.

And they must want to mass produce.For that,we need either centralized state,or religion.
Since building centralized state is not easy,i would use religion - Mochamet in OTL could turn desert tribes into Conqerors who created Empire on bodies of another empires in that way.
Great Michianger could do the same,except conqering empires - becouse in 2500BC there was no such thing in Americas.Not even city states.

 

[Agent23]

This one:

Voytek the Soldier Bear — Badass of the Week

www.badassoftheweek.com

Back on topic: for an Iron revolution to have occurred circa 2500BCE the locals would have needed to mass produce charcoal.

Yeah.

Also they should be able to dig coal at some point.

 

[bintananth]

Yeah.

Also they should be able to dig coal at some point.

The Michigan coal deposits aren't what a blacksmith wants. Useable? Yes, barely. Preferred? Oh hell no.

 

[ATP]

The Michigan coal deposits aren't what a blacksmith wants. Useable? Yes, barely. Preferred? Oh hell no.

Well,they have a lot of trees,so could made coal from them.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The Appalachians are basically made of coal and would supply all they need. Granted that's about a 3-400 mile trip from lake Michigan to there. They could do much of it by river, either going down the Ohio River and then up the Mississippi or taking one of the many tributaries that empties into the Ohio. It's likely a tributary would be faster but as we don't use most of those, hard to map out how fast or useful they are.

 

[Chiron]

Well,they have a lot of trees,so could made coal from them.

You make charcoal from trees, not coal, its completely different.

The Appalachians are basically made of coal and would supply all they need. Granted that's about a 3-400 mile trip from lake Michigan to there. They could do much of it by river, either going down the Ohio River and then up the Mississippi or taking one of the many tributaries that empties into the Ohio. It's likely a tributary would be faster but as we don't use most of those, hard to map out how fast or useful they are.

Coal Regions of the US.