Imperial Invasion Force vs UNSC Division

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
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Scenario

A UNSC world has come under the sight of the Empire. Say, shortly after the end of the UNSC-Covenant War (so, Halo 1-3 era tech). Imperial probes detected a significant military presence and sent a task force to take the planet. The invasion fleet suffered heavy losses, but a full division is able to make it under the UNSC's defense network and assault the UNSC forces.
  • Imperial Forces(Total: 28,303 troops/39,630)
    • Line Battlegroup
      • 10,219 troops (total of 14,410 men)
      • 511 repulsorlift vehicles
      • 53 heavy tanks
    • Reinforce Battlegroup
      • 10, 210 troops (total of 14,890 men)
      • 676 repulsorlift vehicles
      • 212 heavy tanks
    • Auxiliary Battlegroup
      • 7,674 troops (total of 10,130 men)
      • 390 repulsorlift vehicles
      • 40 TIEs
        • 10 flights
          • 3 Flights of Bombers
          • 6 Flights for TIE/In
          • 1 Flight for spotters
    • Additional Force
      • 1 Company of the 501st (200 Stormtroopers)
  • UNSC Forces(17,208 troops + command & support)
    • UNSC Army Division
      • ~14,000 UNSC troops
    • UNSC Marine Regiment
      • 3,200 UNSC Marines
    • Spartan II Team
      • 4 Spartan IIs
    • Spartan III Team
      • 4 Spartan IIIs
    • Vehicles
      • 300 Scorpion Tanks
      • 631Warthogs (various types)
        • 344x M12 Light Reconnaissance Warthog, with Chaingun
        • 114x M12A1 Rocket Warthog
        • 28x M1261 Gauss Warthog
        • 28x M12R Rocket Warthog
        • 60x M831 Troop Transport
        • 57x M914 Recovery Warthog
      • Artillery

I'm not sure what the UNSC assigns in terms of vehicles and such for a division and a regiment, so if anyone has that information, please share.

Who would win?
 
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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
I don't think we have such information to begin with.

The best strategy and one I use for my Versus Threads on Halo is using the possible ship troop complements as a foundation and scaling and working off of that.

Like the Pillar of Autumn could typically carry one battalions worth of Marines, about a thousand troops. Plus thirty Scorpion (and prototype Rhino) Tanks and sixty Warthogs. Twelve Pelican drop ships (and a pair of heavier drop ships) and five Longsword Fighters (though this varies widely by ship air wing) Plus some other random bits and bobs that the novels didn't seem worth to mention.

Marines are meant as a lighter force in most cases so they feel kinda like the Airborne and use drop pods and dropships to get where they are going. So not fully mechanized or motorized.

Maybe we can assume the UNSC Army is heavier.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
The best strategy and one I use for my Versus Threads on Halo is using the possible ship troop complements as a foundation and scaling and working off of that.

Like the Pillar of Autumn could typically carry one battalions worth of Marines, about a thousand troops. Plus thirty Scorpion (and prototype Rhino) Tanks and sixty Warthogs. Twelve Pelican drop ships (and a pair of heavier drop ships) and five Longsword Fighters (though this varies widely by ship air wing) Plus some other random bits and bobs that the novels didn't seem worth to mention.

Marines are meant as a lighter force in most cases so they feel kinda like the Airborne and use drop pods and dropships to get where they are going. So not fully mechanized or motorized.

Maybe we can assume the UNSC Army is heavier.

That's a good catch! Maybe the UNSC Army would have about 3x that force? So 900 Scorpions and 1,000 Warthogs? Probably a good deal of mongooses as well. That would also give them 360 pelican drop ships. I can't imagine they'd have a larger supply of Longsword fighters, but we can assume a similar number to the Marines, so probably 50?

That would also give the Marines in this scenario 96 scorpions, 192 Warthogs, 38-40 Pelican drop ships, and 16 Longswords.

Hmmm, I might need to add in a few more TIEs. Right now that's about 66 Longswords to about 40 TIEs. That's not even counting ground AA. Maybe assume the Stormtroopers bring another 40 TIEs with them? That'd give them 80 to 66. They may not be able to go on the offensive, but they'd be able to keep the UNSC air forces off their backs.

EDIT

Damn, we also need to figure out artillery for both sides.:unsure:
ISB gives the Artillery Regiment as the highest unit for artillery, having between 144 to 288 artillery (less of heavy/medium artillery and more if they have light artillery). So for both battlegroups, that would give them between 288 to 576 artillery pieces.

Double EDIT
Thinking back, that may be too many tanks. 900 seems like a lot for 10,000 guys. But maybe I'm wrong? Any advice on how to scale from Marines to Army?
 
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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
That's a good catch! Maybe the UNSC Army would have about 3x that force? So 900 Scorpions and 1,000 Warthogs? Probably a good deal of mongooses as well. That would also give them 360 pelican drop ships. I can't imagine they'd have a larger supply of Longsword fighters, but we can assume a similar number to the Marines, so probably 50?

That would also give the Marines in this scenario 96 scorpions, 192 Warthogs, 38-40 Pelican drop ships, and 16 Longswords.

Hmmm, I might need to add in a few more TIEs. Right now that's about 66 Longswords to about 40 TIEs. That's not even counting ground AA. Maybe assume the Stormtroopers bring another 40 TIEs with them? That'd give them 80 to 66. They may not be able to go on the offensive, but they'd be able to keep the UNSC air forces off their backs.

According to Halopedia, which it says is working off of the Halo Sourcebook, it seems to indicate that a UNSC Division sized formation is about 14,000 troops though obviously it's not all combat troops.

The other important thing to note is that the UNSC Army and UNSC Marines actually in some cases favor different variants of Warthogs and Scorpion Tanks, as well as things like rifles and other small arms. I think the UNSC Army actually has a wider variety of platforms they do actually use commonly then the UNSC Marines. It's just the Marines are naturally featured more in the lore so you know less about the Army.

They also use different dropships. The Marines use the Pelican and the Army uses something called the Falcon which IIRC looks more like a helicopter then the Pelican does.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Hmmm, I might need to add in a few more TIEs. Right now that's about 66 Longswords to about 40 TIEs. That's not even counting ground AA. Maybe assume the Stormtroopers bring another 40 TIEs with them? That'd give them 80 to 66. They may not be able to go on the offensive, but they'd be able to keep the UNSC air forces off their backs.

Someone else might know more about Space Combat then I do but I feel that Starfighters in Halo are far more secondary in that setting then in Star Wars where it's a main component of spacebattles. I think most space combat between ships is the actual capitol ships hurling missiles and plasma and railgun slugs at each other and the smaller craft are kinda just there to support things like epic hero boarding actions or as we see in the games, supporting planetary operations and other smaller missions.

I could be completely mistaken though.

EDIT

Damn, we also need to figure out artillery for both sides.:unsure:
ISB gives the Artillery Regiment as the highest unit for artillery, having between 144 to 288 artillery (less of heavy/medium artillery and more if they have light artillery). So for both battlegroups, that would give them between 288 to 576 artillery pieces.

UNSC has stationary guns. Ones called a Lance. They also have Kodiak Howitzers which are towed and others that are wheeled self propelled vehicles. Plus both stationary and self propelled MLRS systems. I think they can even be mounted on Warthog variants.

For the Empire you'd have to look even harder. There's an artillery vehicle in Empire At War called an SPMA-T Walker that fires energy bolts. The Imperial Sourcebook states that the Imperial Army has Artillery Battalions and the like but offers no details beyond the organization of the unit and that they are apparently some form of tube style artillery.

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds has a unit literally called Mobile Artillery which can be upgraded to heavy artillery.

There's also Mortar Troopers.

Double EDIT
Thinking back, that may be too many tanks. 900 seems like a lot for 10,000 guys. But maybe I'm wrong? Any advice on

It does seem like a lot because you added a zero. Instead of 3x you got 30x? Unless you meant three times as many tanks per Army trooper as opposed to Marines, in which case yeah that still seems like a lot. A modern or Cold War Division might have 200-300 tanks depending on things. When looking at setting up another versus match a Soviet Motorized Rifle Brigade had 220 Main Battle Tanks. And a 1989-era US Mechanized Infantry Division had something like five armor battalions with almost sixty Abrams tanks each. But I'd agree there would be a lot of Warthogs since I'd assume they'd be fully motorized/mechanized. The UNSC Army has special Warthog APC variants that are completely enclosed and armored.

EDIT:

Oh wow just discovered this from Empire at War as well. It's another artillery walker.


Also the Republic Clone Wars era Artillery was co-opted into the Imperial Military as well.

 
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The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Someone else might know more about Space Combat then I do but I feel that Starfighters in Halo are far more secondary in that setting then in Star Wars where it's a main component of spacebattles. I think most space combat between ships is the actual capitol ships hurling missiles and plasma and railgun slugs at each other and the smaller craft are kinda just there to support things like epic hero boarding actions or as we see in the games, supporting planetary operations and other smaller missions.

I could be completely mistaken though.

Well, UNSC does make use of fighters, but being as they were unshielded, they were always easy pickings for the Covenant's point defense laser grid, which if I recall, was pretty accurate.

UNSC has stationary guns. Ones called a Lance. They also have Kodiak Howitzers which are towed and others that are wheeled self propelled vehicles. Plus both stationary and self propelled MLRS systems. I think they can even be mounted on Warthog variants.

For the Empire you'd have to look even harder. There's an artillery vehicle in Empire At War called an SPMA-T Walker that fires energy bolts. The Imperial Sourcebook states that the Imperial Army has Artillery Battalions and the like but offers no details beyond the organization of the unit and that they are apparently some form of tube style artillery.

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds has a unit literally called Mobile Artillery which can be upgraded to heavy artillery.

There's also Mortar Troopers.

I actually did check the ISB and it did give some information on some artillery. Specifically the Leveler I:


Pretty impressive. It's an MLR with 28 concussion missile tubes. 20 meter blast radius and has a range of up to 16 km. Could fire individually, in salvos of seven, or all at once. Even had a dispersal option for wide, narrow, and medium. Unfortunately, each tube has to be reloaded by hand. That's one of their medium artillery pieces.


The c-136 is one of their heavy artillery pieces, but it's older and seems to be inspired by the German Gustav, in that it requires time to assemble and prepare. It's basically an ion cannon and has a 100-burst radius, with a maximum range of 25 km. Basically designed to target and demolish cities or large fortifications during the Clone Wars.



It does seem like a lot because you added a zero. Instead of 3x you got 30x? Unless you meant three times as many tanks per Army trooper as opposed to Marines, in which case yeah that still seems like a lot.

Yeah, that was my logic.

A modern or Cold War Division might have 200-300 tanks depending on things. When looking at setting up another versus match a Soviet Motorized Rifle Brigade had 220 Main Battle Tanks. And a 1989-era US Mechanized Infantry Division had something like five armor battalions with almost sixty Abrams tanks each. But I'd agree there would be a lot of Warthogs since I'd assume they'd be fully motorized/mechanized. The UNSC Army has special Warthog APC variants that are completely enclosed and armored.

EDIT:

Oh wow just discovered this from Empire at War as well. It's another artillery walker.


I think the US army is a good rule of thumb. That would give them 300 tanks. Which I think is a good number. Looking at some comments online, it seems like a light infantry battalion might have 27-41. I'm going to assume 41, since the UNSC seems to really like its Warthogs, but they don't seem to outnumber the tanks. That would give the UNSC 574 warthogs jeeps of various designs.

According to Halopedia, which it says is working off of the Halo Sourcebook, it seems to indicate that a UNSC Division sized formation is about 14,000 troops though obviously it's not all combat troops.

Got it, I'll make the adjustments.

The other important thing to note is that the UNSC Army and UNSC Marines actually in some cases favor different variants of Warthogs and Scorpion Tanks, as well as things like rifles and other small arms. I think the UNSC Army actually has a wider variety of platforms they do actually use commonly then the UNSC Marines. It's just the Marines are naturally featured more in the lore so you know less about the Army

Hmmm, good to know, although I don't think it will make too much of a difference.

They also use different dropships. The Marines use the Pelican and the Army uses something called the Falcon which IIRC looks more like a helicopter then the Pelican does.

That's right, it's what they used in Reach, right?


Hmmm, I wonder what's our best option for UNSC artillery? It looks to be mostly mobile.
 
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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Hmmm, good to know, although I don't think it will make too much of a difference.

Adding extraneous details is fun tho.

Hmmm, I wonder what's our best option for UNSC artillery? It looks to be mostly mobile.

If the Imperials are attacking a UNSC World then there might be more stationary and towed artillery emplacements like what you see in the more popular game media. Like the Onager MAC Cannons in Halo: Reach. Halo Wars also had the Talos base defense turrets which could mount machine guns, flame mortars and anti-armor light railguns. Light railguns could also be mounted on the Warthogs.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Adding extraneous details is fun tho.

True. Well, I would propose:

  • 344x M12 Light Reconnaissance Warthog, with Chaingun --
  • 114x M12A1 Rocket Warthog
  • 28x M1261 Gauss Warthog
  • 28x M12R Rocket Warthog
  • 60x M831 Troop Transport
  • 57x M914 Recovery Warthog
I'll the recovery warthog to the total of 574, giving the UNSC a total of 631 warthogs for this fight.


If the Imperials are attacking a UNSC World then there might be more stationary and towed artillery emplacements like what you see in the more popular game media. Like the Onager MAC Cannons in Halo: Reach. Halo Wars also had the Talos base defense turrets which could mount machine guns, flame mortars and anti-armor light railguns. Light railguns could also be mounted on the Warthogs.

That's true. That's also why I did give the Empire a large numbers advantage. Attackers are generally estimated to lose at least 3:1 against defenders.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Maybe artillery isn't as big a deal due to the implied use of aerial assets (and orbital assets which aren't covered by this OP thankfully). So there would be less traditional artillery than one would reasonably expect for modern day. Plus the UNSC does have a lot of anti-air assets, fixed and mobile vehicles so it could even things up perhaps and add a nuance to the whole thing if the Imperials decide to go heavier with the aerial craft.

Thirty thousand troops would be like three generic ISD's worth of troops generally speaking and each ISD carries about 72 starfighters of various types per Legends canon AFAIK so there could be a basis starting from there. Meanwhile the UNSC tend to be pretty fortified in defense I would imagine due to the Human-Covenant War and would have heavier air defense. So with orbital bombardment a non-factor that could give reason to the debate as to how effective the TIEs and potential aerial supremacy might be in the ground campaign.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Troop Transport hogs are ass, give them at least Mastodons

:p

I think giving the UNSC Marines and UNSC Army different vehicle groupings is kind of a neat idea, even if its not exactly reflected in the sometimes patchy and sparse lore.

Though I agree the open topped troop transport Warthogs can be pretty inimical to... life.
 

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