Warhammer 40K Imperial Guard force to beat an Armored Brigade Combat Team

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Similar logic beating a modern armored brigade: I think they're probably more manuverable than the guard unless I put together a very expensive unit. So, instead I have a big 30x30 km square advancing at a walking pace. If they harrass the parimiter, well, they're mostly killing completely expendable infantry. Those can be replaced to keep the slow advance, inflict virtual attrition on the US force as they get tired, disordered, and expend ammo.

If they attempt to hold ground, then they get battered down with artillery, and hopefully pinned by levee infantry encircling their position.

If they attempt to break through, their most organized, coherent and best rested attack is carried out against the first line of levees, leaving less capable attacks on later strong points, and if they don't take all of them, pushing in just leaves them surround in the tar pit.

If I was in the Brigade's position I'd likely use a small detachment to penetrate the slowly advancing 30 kilometer wide column using my superior speed and maneuverability to bypass and circumnavigate the Levee forces entirely. The detachment's directive would be to engage with Overwatch group then retreat forcing them to slowly pursue suffering loses all the while.

Once they've taken the bait I'd use a larger force of Abrams and Bradleys' lying in wait to punch through the flank and slip behind the already engaged Overwatch and Rapid Reaction Forces to destroy the Artillery unit then turn to engage the Overwatch and RRF from the rear pinning them between the jaws of the two forces while the Brigade's artillery pummels them. Before the two detachments link back up and punch their way through the closing mobs of Leeve infantry to regroup, rearm and prepare for the next day's encounter.

If possible I'd choose for the engagement to take place at night to further hamper the Leeve's infantry ability to fight or coordinate themselves.
 

ATP

Well-known member
If I was in the Brigade's position I'd likely use a small detachment to penetrate the slowly advancing 30 kilometer wide column using my superior speed and maneuverability to bypass and circumnavigate the Levee forces entirely. The detachment's directive would be to engage with Overwatch group then retreat forcing them to slowly pursue suffering loses all the while.

Once they've taken the bait I'd use a larger force of Abrams and Bradleys' lying in wait to punch through the flank and slip behind the already engaged Overwatch and Rapid Reaction Forces to destroy the Artillery unit then turn to engage the Overwatch and RRF from the rear pinning them between the jaws of the two forces while the Brigade's artillery pummels them. Before the two detachments link back up and punch their way through the closing mobs of Leeve infantry to regroup, rearm and prepare for the next day's encounter.

If possible I'd choose for the engagement to take place at night to further hamper the Leeve's infantry ability to fight or coordinate themselves.

Good idea.American infrantry could fight in night,IG could not.They need to cover them with tanks to counter that.
Destroing artillery - if you have drones,send them.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
I know we all joke about the way the Imperial armor looks, but I've seen nothing that says current tech has a chance in hell of defeating it.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I know we all joke about the way the Imperial armor looks, but I've seen nothing that says current tech has a chance in hell of defeating it.

Easy,when commander opened hatch and is weaving sword.Just lob grenade from drone there.Or target caterpillars.Or use thermobaric warheads,or napalm - tank would survive,but crew would die from lack of oxygen.
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
I know we all joke about the way the Imperial armor looks, but I've seen nothing that says current tech has a chance in hell of defeating it.

Why wouldn't it? The tank itself has armor thickness comparable to a King Tiger tank's with implications they employ an analogous Rolled Homogeneous Armor design akin to that era opposed to modern ones and appear to be designed as flat and boxy as humanly possible further limiting its effectiveness.

The Vanquisher cannon, the premier Imperial anti-tank armament, employs a discarding sabot shell not radically different from Modern ones.

The old AI books of course gave values for the Landraider's armor, which employed adamantium rather than just Plasteel, which were nothing too exceptional.

Further the scale of 40K ground battle, until you start getting into Titans, are not much, if any, higher than 20th/21st century ones. With the presence of vulnerable infantry fighting in close ranks without instantly dying to secondary blast effects curtailing how powerful the tanks can be.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
tank would survive,but crew would die from lack of oxygen.
Why? Tanks are sealed when closed up and can remain so for many hours, and possibly days.
The tank itself has armor thickness comparable to a King Tiger tank's with implications they employ an analogous Rolled Homogeneous Armor design akin to that era opposed to modern ones and appear to be designed as flat and boxy as humanly possible further limiting its effectiveness.
Where are you getting this info? I've never seen a measurement on armor thickness for them, and I've certainly never see anything remotely stating it's like our present-day armor in durability.
The old AI books of course gave values for the Landraider's armor, which employed adamantium rather than just Plasteel, which were nothing too exceptional.
AI books? What books are these? Adamantium is sci-fi metal of exceeding durability...so why is this not exceptional?
With the presence of vulnerable infantry fighting in close ranks without instantly dying to secondary blast effects curtailing how powerful the tanks can be.
I've read lots of fluff kill off infantry near tanks when they get hit in 40K.
Further the scale of 40K ground battle, until you start getting into Titans, are not much, if any, higher than 20th/21st century ones.
The power scale is hugely different. The Leman Russ can power multiple plasma cannon and Lascannons without having to modify their existing engine plant. How is this even remotely the same scale as present day?
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
I know if this was the weakest AdMech force we would just need a couple dozen Vanguard Skitaari with handful of Sicarian Infiltrators 😈
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Where are you getting this info? I've never seen a measurement on armor thickness for them, and I've certainly never see anything remotely stating it's like our present-day armor in durability.
Well the easiest answer would be the wiki, the same place I linked previously concerning the Leman Russ's speed which gives a nice break down on the Leman Russ's basic stats. They obtained that from Imperial Armor Volume 1 which I currently do not posses. I do own the original Imperial Armor, no volume number, which lists an armor value of 45-200 mm for each Leman Russ Variant starting with the Conquer on page 6.

AI books? What books are these?
My apologies, I meant to type IA for Imperial Armor. Specifically the relevant sections are from Imperial Armor Volume 2. Now I must confess being another book I have not yet purchased I could not find the quote which specificlly mentioned the Land Raider possessing Adamantium. I did however find this quote from the same volume concerning the Predator tank:

Imperial Armor Vol 2 said:
The inner layer provides the main protection. Its a bonded ceramite/adamantium alloy which provides protection equal to over five times the same width of conventional steel, while being lighter. The second layer is a reinforcing thermoplas with a sub-dermal energy dissipation fibre mesh, providing protection against extremes of heat and radioactivity. The outer layer is a non-magnetic acrylic identification sheath. All in all, this corresponds to over 200mm of conventional steel on the front of the vehicle.

And I did find the quote for armor effectiveness for the Land Raider.

Imperial Armor Vol 2 said:
The front armor is 98mm thick, but provides protection equivalent to approximately 300mm of conventional steel.

Adamantium is sci-fi metal of exceeding durability...so why is this not exceptional?
The material itself certainly is but I was not referring to the Adamantium but rather the total armor effectiveness. Specifically your claim the gap was so great that current tech did not have a "chance in hell of defeating it." In that context I don't find 200-300mm of steel that exceptional depending on the iteration and the weapon type in question an Abrams's effective RHA can go up to 1000.

Further, to my knowledge, Leman Russ tanks are not built with Adamantium but rather just Plasteel so there armor is going to be less effective than the above Imperial examples.

I've read lots of fluff kill off infantry near tanks when they get hit in 40K.
Begging your pardon but what you describe doesn't sound very different from what would happen with a modern tank or even one from WW2. Something we might broadly bracket in the megajoule range.

We typically don't see the sort of wide area of affect, over pressure ect of something into the gigajoule range for example outside of Titans we don't usually see anything like this on the battlefield.

The power scale is hugely different. The Leman Russ can power multiple plasma cannon and Lascannons without having to modify their existing engine plant. How is this even remotely the same scale as present day?
Once again begging your pardon but I said nothing about a "power scale" but rather the "scale of 40K ground battle" primarily focusing the firepower of 40K Tank shell didn't appear miles more powerful than a real world equivalent.

While Imperium power generation no doubt is impressive that does not, in and of itself, translate into a more powerful scale of weapons.
 
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Scooby Doo

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Tbh pretty sure you're going to need Baneblades to beat an Abrams, bar a few outliers the Leman Russ is just a really REALLY poorly designed tank. It makes the Halo Scorpion Tank look like the pinnacle of tank technology.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The Lexicanum supposedly cites Imperial Armor Volume One and has some citations on armor thickness.


The Mars Leman Russ states:
Superstructure: 180mm
Hull: 150mm
Gun Mantlet: 100mm
Turret: 200mm

In which case due to it being Warhammer 40K and taking place many millenia into the future (Dark Ages notwithstanding) I would like to give Imperial Armor a benefit of a doubt and at least give them the three to five times armor effectiveness that was earlier cited for the Predators/Land Raiders. The Leman Russ is already poorly designed on the face of it, but having it so markedly inferior to a modern MBT just strikes me as wrong thematically. :p

IF you wish to accept that benefit of a doubt then the results would be:
Superstructure + Hull: 690 to 1050 mm as basic protection.
Turret: 780 to 1180 mm for the turret. Plus another 300-500 mm for the gun mantlet apparently.
 
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King Arts

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The Lexicanum supposedly cites Imperial Armor Volume One and has some citations on armor thickness.


The Mars Leman Russ states:
Superstructure: 180mm
Hull: 150mm
Gun Mantlet: 100mm
Turret: 200mm

In which case due to it being Warhammer 40K and taking place many millenia into the future (Dark Ages notwithstanding) I would like to give Imperial Armor a benefit of a doubt and at least give them the three to five times armor effectiveness that was earlier cited for the Predators/Land Raiders. The Leman Russ is already poorly designed on the face of it, but having it so markedly inferior to a modern MBT just strikes me as wrong thematically. :p

IF you wish to accept that benefit of a doubt then the results would be:
Superstructure + Hull: 690 to 1050 mm as basic protection.
Turret: 780 to 1180 mm for the turret. Plus another 300-500 mm for the gun mantlet apparently.
I don’t know making it inferior to modern stuff can make sense much was lost the scientist are shamans who think machine spirits are real. Yeah they can be inferior in some ways and make it up with numbers.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The Lexicanum supposedly cites Imperial Armor Volume One and has some citations on armor thickness.


The Mars Leman Russ states:
Superstructure: 180mm
Hull: 150mm
Gun Mantlet: 100mm
Turret: 200mm

In which case due to it being Warhammer 40K and taking place many millenia into the future (Dark Ages notwithstanding) I would like to give Imperial Armor a benefit of a doubt and at least give them the three to five times armor effectiveness that was earlier cited for the Predators/Land Raiders. The Leman Russ is already poorly designed on the face of it, but having it so markedly inferior to a modern MBT just strikes me as wrong thematically. :p

IF you wish to accept that benefit of a doubt then the results would be:
Superstructure + Hull: 690 to 1050 mm as basic protection.
Turret: 780 to 1180 mm for the turret. Plus another 300-500 mm for the gun mantlet apparently.

So,both Abrams and modern AT missiles would destroy Leman Russ with first hit.They need numbers to win.
 

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