novussa
Active member
I meant his father who owns a resturant and makes real food.
I get to conquer the Federation (SW and ST Crossover/SI)
- Thread starter Jaenera Targaryen
- Start date
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Oh, I see. Well, he's still probably in New Orleans, which is on the opposite side of the continent from San Francisco (which got glassed). Depending on the prevailing winds, the effects of the fallout is...
...it could go either way.
IrishChaos
Active member
And New Orleans even in a Federation universe is at risk of flooding and building underground shelter is difficult with the water table so high. He was an old man when DS9 was on TV. Nuclear fallout, disease and flooding could have made him a statistic.
Airedale260
Well-known member
So, as I (think) I have said before, this story is quite enjoyable and I like where this has gone and is going -well, not the environmental disaster on Earth & Luna but, to continue the totalitarian state metaphor, the Federation’s “safety culture” is basically that of the Soviet Union…it’d be nice if they had one. But I have some observations (NOT criticisms, observations).
I find it incredibly facepalm-worthy that, when faced with mutinous crews, “How dare executions be threatened, it’s barbaric!” is the response in light of the vaguely relevant fact that the Federation is in a war for its very survival. Clearly whatever oath Starfleet personnel take to the Federation and the ideas it ostensibly stands for only apply in times of ease and comfort. But, again, not really surprised.
Nechayev…eh. I’m not going to make any sarcastic comments about Russians in this thread but hoo boy. The only thing that’s disappointing is ISB didn’t get a crack at her. And maybe the full extent of the signing ceremony was a bit of gilding the lily, so to speak…yeah, much as I have issues with the canon Federation as well as here…the Empire did launch an aggressive war of conquest because they’re greedy and because Palpatine is an evil sorcerer and piece of shit the universe is better off without masquerading as a human being. Which makes me wonder if Q might remove him as a way to introduce even more chaos…but who knows.
The Empire, much as I basically despise their leadership and pretty much everything about their politics* (and the Republic before it and the Rebel Alliance for that matter) at least understand basic discipline. My beefs with them are mainly (in no particular order) a bunch of megalomaniacs with zero conscience at the helm**, an oligarchy that really does more or less play Game of Thrones IN SPACE***, and a military sense that, when it comes down to it, really isn’t that good compared to, say, NATO militaries in real life****.
Now, hilariously, a few of these comments do apply to my preferred fandoms (full disclosure, they’re Babylon 5’s Earth Alliance and BattleTech’s Federated Suns), but when this hits, it’s the exception rather than the rule. Whereas with both the Federation and the Empire/Republic/Alliance, it’s the rule.
But.
What really attracted me to this story is that this isn’t going to be a “‘Perfect’ Communist Utopia” or “Empire Uber Alles”.
Because that’s not the tasking Q gave Jaenera. He gave her a tasking to seize this opportunity to turn both universes upside down and build something…new. Something completely unpredictable. A real new order, not Sheev Palpatine’s latest space-magic-inspired megalomania.
And I’m genuinely looking forward to seeing where this goes.
*-Mainly the misogyny and human supremacy, plus the whole “freely commit mass murder on the of a few psychopaths who enjoy doing this stuff on a whim.” Like, yeah, the Federation has its problems but on the other hand, saying “Fuck this, I’m out” and just moving on generally results in the Federation going “Bye Felicia.” It’s only if you start actually trying to dig into the truth of what the Federation really is when Section 31 comes knocking. The Empire, however…Palpatihe and his Merry Men will hunt your ass down and make an example of you for daring to insult the Greatest Man In All of History and the Force.
**-Palpatine, Tarkin, Vader, Motti, Isard (Ysanne at least, don’t know much about her old man other than she engineered his downfall), etc. The rank and file…yeah they serve a cause but that’s kind of being products of their environment. Namely the crap that went on with the Confederacy of Independent Systems, the Clone Wars, etc, but…the former are all embodiments of evil and either man-children given absolute power (Palpatine to a larger degree, Vader very much), people who were horribly abused and turned into abusers themselves (Tarkin and I suspect Isard, but not sure), or just the insane admiral types trying to get above themselves (Motti). Not that the Rebel Alliance was much better: there was a slice that were outright terrorists, and the Republic was basically the Roman Republic IN SPACE with the level of backstabbing, oligarchs, and greed (with the occasional idealist in the mix). Exactly how the more idealistic members planned to avoid that part was clearly never thought out based on the sequel trilogy…and the crap that really set in after the original generation moved on in Legends canon. Or the different but equal crap in the sequel trilogy…
***-I suppose this rolls into the above point, but pretty much everyone falls into this, even, say, Leia Organa, who (much like dear old dad) doesn’t really consider the consequences of her actions and the impacts felt by, well, any poor schmuck caught under the wreck of a cruiser crashing down through atmosphere. Luke, on the other hand, having thought he was one of those poor schmucks until fate/the Force intervened, seems to have at least considered that much.
****-There was some commentary about this, basically how, especially with the assault on Hoth,the tactics used by both sides pretty much made no sense…basically self-propelled artillery and light infantry plus giant ass walkers that turned out to have a glaring weakness in their…well, giant legs…plus only using seven warships to “blockade” an entire planet.
Fortunately or unfortunately, our protagonist is not only quite competent but has picked several equally competent personnel to at least clear the rot.
I find it incredibly facepalm-worthy that, when faced with mutinous crews, “How dare executions be threatened, it’s barbaric!” is the response in light of the vaguely relevant fact that the Federation is in a war for its very survival. Clearly whatever oath Starfleet personnel take to the Federation and the ideas it ostensibly stands for only apply in times of ease and comfort. But, again, not really surprised.
Nechayev…eh. I’m not going to make any sarcastic comments about Russians in this thread but hoo boy. The only thing that’s disappointing is ISB didn’t get a crack at her. And maybe the full extent of the signing ceremony was a bit of gilding the lily, so to speak…yeah, much as I have issues with the canon Federation as well as here…the Empire did launch an aggressive war of conquest because they’re greedy and because Palpatine is an evil sorcerer and piece of shit the universe is better off without masquerading as a human being. Which makes me wonder if Q might remove him as a way to introduce even more chaos…but who knows.
The Empire, much as I basically despise their leadership and pretty much everything about their politics* (and the Republic before it and the Rebel Alliance for that matter) at least understand basic discipline. My beefs with them are mainly (in no particular order) a bunch of megalomaniacs with zero conscience at the helm**, an oligarchy that really does more or less play Game of Thrones IN SPACE***, and a military sense that, when it comes down to it, really isn’t that good compared to, say, NATO militaries in real life****.
Now, hilariously, a few of these comments do apply to my preferred fandoms (full disclosure, they’re Babylon 5’s Earth Alliance and BattleTech’s Federated Suns), but when this hits, it’s the exception rather than the rule. Whereas with both the Federation and the Empire/Republic/Alliance, it’s the rule.
But.
What really attracted me to this story is that this isn’t going to be a “‘Perfect’ Communist Utopia” or “Empire Uber Alles”.
Because that’s not the tasking Q gave Jaenera. He gave her a tasking to seize this opportunity to turn both universes upside down and build something…new. Something completely unpredictable. A real new order, not Sheev Palpatine’s latest space-magic-inspired megalomania.
And I’m genuinely looking forward to seeing where this goes.
*-Mainly the misogyny and human supremacy, plus the whole “freely commit mass murder on the of a few psychopaths who enjoy doing this stuff on a whim.” Like, yeah, the Federation has its problems but on the other hand, saying “Fuck this, I’m out” and just moving on generally results in the Federation going “Bye Felicia.” It’s only if you start actually trying to dig into the truth of what the Federation really is when Section 31 comes knocking. The Empire, however…Palpatihe and his Merry Men will hunt your ass down and make an example of you for daring to insult the Greatest Man In All of History and the Force.
**-Palpatine, Tarkin, Vader, Motti, Isard (Ysanne at least, don’t know much about her old man other than she engineered his downfall), etc. The rank and file…yeah they serve a cause but that’s kind of being products of their environment. Namely the crap that went on with the Confederacy of Independent Systems, the Clone Wars, etc, but…the former are all embodiments of evil and either man-children given absolute power (Palpatine to a larger degree, Vader very much), people who were horribly abused and turned into abusers themselves (Tarkin and I suspect Isard, but not sure), or just the insane admiral types trying to get above themselves (Motti). Not that the Rebel Alliance was much better: there was a slice that were outright terrorists, and the Republic was basically the Roman Republic IN SPACE with the level of backstabbing, oligarchs, and greed (with the occasional idealist in the mix). Exactly how the more idealistic members planned to avoid that part was clearly never thought out based on the sequel trilogy…and the crap that really set in after the original generation moved on in Legends canon. Or the different but equal crap in the sequel trilogy…
***-I suppose this rolls into the above point, but pretty much everyone falls into this, even, say, Leia Organa, who (much like dear old dad) doesn’t really consider the consequences of her actions and the impacts felt by, well, any poor schmuck caught under the wreck of a cruiser crashing down through atmosphere. Luke, on the other hand, having thought he was one of those poor schmucks until fate/the Force intervened, seems to have at least considered that much.
****-There was some commentary about this, basically how, especially with the assault on Hoth,the tactics used by both sides pretty much made no sense…basically self-propelled artillery and light infantry plus giant ass walkers that turned out to have a glaring weakness in their…well, giant legs…plus only using seven warships to “blockade” an entire planet.
Fortunately or unfortunately, our protagonist is not only quite competent but has picked several equally competent personnel to at least clear the rot.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
If it makes you feel any better, it's because Gene Rodenberry was a Communist, and the Federation is supposed to be an idealized version thereof. He had to tone it down in TOS because of executive meddling (one rare example where that became a good thing), but season 1 of TNG in particular, and indeed, TNG as a whole, pretty much embodies what Rodenberry wanted the Federation and Starfleet to look like.
Less that and even outside of Section 31, these people have a...fanatical, belief in their ideals. You can see this in Riker's insistence in how combat isn't part of a Starfleet officer's duty (yes, he actually said this in TNG), or the way their crews interact with each other or their superiors. They believe that they've moved on past primitive and barbaric things like conflict, ideology, and even hierarchal societies...
...which is going to make the fall so much harder once the Empire finally digs itself out of the bones they got buried in, and angrily force the Feds to take a good look at how little they've actually moved on.
Well...I'm kinda aiming for the latter, but less Sidious-era Empire and more Pellaeon or Fel-era Empire.
Well, we'll see. But it definitely won't be Sidious' Dark Empire. If Thrawn could get away with his 'Empire of the Hand' in Legends canon, something similar should be possible here too.
Ironically, Sidious was neither a misogynist or a Human supremacist. He just let COMPNOR play its game because it was convenient, but when it wasn't, he just ignored them. Ysanne Isard was a woman after all, and Sidious knew about Tarkin promoting Daala to oversee the Maw branch of the Empire's superweapons program. Mas Amedda remained Sidious' personal representative on the Imperial Senate, and was the only person to rival Sate Pestage's influence on the Imperial Ruling Council. The Emperor's Dark Adepts also included both women and nonhumans, and Mara Jade wasn't the only woman among the Emperor's Hands.
Fun fact about Admiral Motti: Sidious actually held him in contempt for his opinions on the Force. Getting Force Choked by Vader for making light of the Force's power might not actually have been the first time he ran afoul of an annoyed Darksider.
Eh...let's give credit where it's due. As bureaucratic and faction-ridden as the New Republic was in Legends, they weren't as stupid as their counterpart in Disney canon. Anyone who suggests disbanding 90%(!) of the military because "democracy doesn't need protecting" is going to get laughed out of the rotunda at best. Likewise for the sheer bureaucratic makework that's a "capital on rotation".
She and the entire senior staff of the expeditionary force are all Clone War veterans, after all. And while most junior officers are of the new breed, they're quickly wising up and shaking off the ideological deadweight. Not with their commander being so inspiring, winning battle after battle and playing them up as liberators against the shadow dictatorship that is the Federation.
I know, the latter is ironic considering the Empire is an autocratic state, but the Empire doesn't hide it, nor does it try to make people into nor want them to be perfect and idealistic caricatures of intelligent life. In the immortal words of Simon Phoenix, "you can't take away people's right to be assholes."
Airedale260
Well-known member
Right. I didn’t actually realize that until a friend pointed out the actual governing/economic system of the Federation (and this was in late college) and I was like “Uhh…ew.”
Right. Which I find incredibly ironic, because humans are flawed. Sure, we try to improve…but we can’t (as in, are incapable of) being ‘perfect.’
As you said, deep down, at least the Empire admits it.
Right, and honestly…that’s not that bad. The lighter factions in BattleTech are much the same…effectively feudal rulers but no arbitrary arrests/detentions/massacres…they tend to go for far more subtle political machinations and the occasional “black bag arrest where someone is put in front of a classified court of law.” But that’s an exception rather than the norm.
Right. Honestly, if anything I think his philosophy was along the lines of “Don’t care who and what you are, can you do what I want you to do” and if the answer was yes, great; if not, “eh, just don’t disrespect me and everything will be fine.” Laying waste to entire planets as “object lessons” or allowing his underlings to do so, however…he was effectively like the Greek gods of old, if he noticed you…look out. Guy with supernatural powers who has no compunction about (and probably enjoys) abusing them…
Nice.
It's not entirely unrealistic, though it's more for armies than navies, but even so, in the immediate aftermath of the Cold War in the early 1990s, the U.S. downsized significantly from what we had available to face Soviet/Warsaw Pact forces, which was a pattern following, well, pretty much every significant conflict we have been involved in. Same goes for most countries...up until the next crisis hits.
Eh, that's not really true with the Empire, at least under Palpatine. It's less "letting people do what they want day to day as long as it doesn't hurt others" and more "these mere mortals are beneath my notice so I don't give a shit about them or their problems." The rank and file of the Empire basically vary depending on their personalities.
Contrast that with, say, BattleTech's Federated Suns, which at its core is a feudal system, but one bound by a constitutional order. Political manipulations are very subtle and mainly ensuring that nobody goes too far off the rails in advocating extreme democracy OR autocracy. And considering its neighbors are Space North Korea and Space WW2 Japan, people don't complain. Actual black ops stuff is SUPER rare and not about enforcing political conformity but actual national security threats. Yeah it's got a lot of problems, but for the most part people are left alone to figure them out through democratic processes (each individual world being a representative government of one form or another but usually a Westminster system). No Section 31 or ISB stuff. And no letting say, a massive organized crime cartel run a backwater planet...
Edit: So far as Jaenera and Co are concerned, yes, I get it. I'm just saying that it's quite refreshing.
And yeah, Pellaeon or Fel...I don't have issues with them, they aren't narcissistic SOBs, just products of their system trying to do their best.
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namar13766
Well-known member
I have the feeling whatever society forms due to the SI's actions will have some inspiration from the Templin Institute Re-Imaginings.
namar13766
Well-known member
How democratic, really, was the Federation? There's a lot of dodginess behind the scenes.
One of the biggest examples is that despite having a cure for the Andorian's fertility issues, which had plagued them for generations and would lead to their extinction, Starfleet (and not the Federation) was unwilling to use it...because it required top-secret research.
Please explain to me how and why Starfleet had enough influence to go behind the backs of the Federation and passively, willingly, commit GENOCIDE. Especially if it was the Andorians, you know, ONE OF THE FUCKING FOUNDING MEMBERS OF THE FEDERATION!
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Probably something like was the case in the Soviet Union, or in China today. They make a show of an election, but the next president is already chosen ahead of the election by the party apparatchiks, and the election is just a formality.
Blame Archer for that. He established the precedent when he decided to similarly withhold a cure for a genetic disorder the Valakians were suffering from, on the basis that nature had clearly decided they were meant to go extinct, and they had no right to interfere otherwise. Not only that, but he did so on his own authority as captain, without consulting with anyone from either Starfleet Command or the United Earth Government.
Like I said, there's precedent for it. More than that, it's an ingrained mentality in Starfleet too, considering Picard's practically the poster boy for "The Prime Directive forbids me from helping you." There's also the whole fact that the cure involves genetic engineering, one of the biggest taboos for the Terrans.
At least for now. Small hint (for how it and other taboos get changed) ever heard of Catholic Schoolgirl Syndrome?
It is one of the biggest ironies that the cure was distributed by Julian Bashir, an AUGMENT, in short the same kind of people who used to dismiss Naturals as obsolete and fit only to either serve or die out. Khan's probably laughing his ass off in the afterlife, while remarking it's a shame he never got to know Bashir.
For all his self-esteem issues over his nature as an Augment, Bashir clearly is a superior Human.
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IrishChaos
Active member
Yeah the Federation starts teaching early with the hologram the adventure of Flotter. As the jesuits say give me the boy and I will show you the man.
Bassoe
Well-known member
Androids...meet mass deployment of Ion grenades and missiles.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Well, that is what the Empire used to destroy self-replicating minefields above Mars.
AspblastUSA
Well-known member
I feel like if the Federation begins mass deployment of androids the overwhelming consensus from the veterans of the last war leading this campaign will be something along the lines of “Aw shit, here we go again.”
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Well, that was the Federation's plan. But, considering the Federation's limited industrial capacity, it never really got that far, at least before the Empire launched its major offensive into the Federation's core systems. With Andor under siege, Vulcan and Earth having surrendered, it's all up in the air if they can even still pull off in some way.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Well, not really, of course I'm writing here from the point of view of the People's Poland, but elections in the People's Republic of Poland were based on the principle that you got a card with names on it and you weren't allowed to cross out anyone, you just had to vote for all the people mentioned on the card. There were no elections except the rigged ones in 1948 really. You had no choice really and you knew it.
You were literally given a piece of paper to circle the people on it and put it in the ballot box. And if you look at the whole thing that came to us on Ruskies tanks in '44, then most likely the same thing was happening in the USSR.
Of course, the First Secretary was always chosen by the party, but this is obvious because he is the First Secretary of the communist party and nominally he meant nothing legally in the state. But theory and practice in communism are two completely different things. So my question is, who is the First Secretary in the Federation? Who is a visible but never elected person who has too much power for a person without any formal legal significance.
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IrishChaos
Active member
Probably the man behind the curtain pulling the strings would be the chairman of section 31 if any exists or maybe the A I URAEI
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AspblastUSA
Well-known member
Given how much of the infrastructure was run through Starfleet by the 24th century, probably some bigwig in their admin track. If this happened organically as a side effect of Starfleet picking up hats as needed rather than deliberate scheming it doubles in producing the delightfully ironic concept of an accidental pacifist junta.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
It would make things easier, if that were the case, considering the Pellaeon-era Empire was a military junta. And as I stated before, that is an inspiration for what the 'Empire of the Dragon' might end up looking like.
IrishChaos
Active member
I wonder would Picard be able to reconcile his ideal of the Federation to its re-education camps and political prisoners on ice, or will he have to have his nose shoved into it.