Horse Archers are overrated

If you want to know about why Mongol invasion of Hungary failed, I'd suggest reading this:

Fact that Mongol cavalry armies were as large as they were, and supplied themselves in nomadic way, caused them major problems in their European campaigns. In Hungary, Mongol armies began to starve in the winter without being able to achieve any lasting success - and that was in 1241 invasion. Invasion of 1285 was an outright disaster for the Mongols, and they got destroyed by combination of castle strategy, heavy cavalry and crossbowmen. Compare this to Hungarian campaigns of 15th century, where implementation of the wagenburg meant that winter campaigning was not only possible, but preferred.

But you are partly correct. Crossbows did significantly improve ability of foot armies to defend themselves from the horse archers - but horse archers were hardly a machine of death and despair even before introduction of crossbows. Roman armies successfully used foot archers - using short bows, mind you - to repel both Parthian and Hunnic horse archers, as well as other horse archers. In fact, Romans never had issues facing horse archers: it was cataphracts which were a major problem for them. Even Crassus, who was dumb enough to invade Parthia with no archers of his own, will have successfully extracted his armies from Persia if it weren't for Persian cataphracts.

Problem facing steppe horsemen was never the fact that they were horse archers. Rather, it was the fact that they could appear and disappear at will, often faster than message of their appearance could travel. But any time steppe horsemen successfully conquered something, that only happened after they acquired some infantry and siege engineers first. Hunnic armies which conquered Roman cities looked more like Roman armies of the time than anything else, and likewise, Mongol armies that conquered China were literally just Chinese armies with added element of Mongol cavalry (40% of which were heavily armored cataphract-style cavalry and not your stereotypical horse archers).
Yes, that's the strategic skirmishing ability i talked about. The horse nomad armies were able to keep the initiative, being able to pick which battles happen, when and which to avoid (which in itself implies some battles would be bad for them to fight), and keep messing about, causing lots of disruption and damage, even if only to what was outside of castle walls.
Conquering also means breaking the walls and holding the conquered territory, which is something where the horse nomads lose their core advantage - they have to defend lands whenever they are attacked, instead of picking the time and place of their battles.

And yeah, i know the steppe horse nomads didn't fight just as archers, they also used a lot more normal cavalry. But both were extremely mobile forces which could be abused in some ways against less mobile armies.
That is actually only mostly wrong.

Yes, peasants were indeed conscripted into army. But that was never done lightly, and very rarely en masse. Issue was simply logistics: army larger than some 10 000 - 25 000 was impossible to supply in the field without extensive logistical arrangements that were largely beyond the capability of a feudal kingdom. So why would you send ten thousand peasant mobsters if instead you could have ten thousand professional soldiers?
Because training and equipping professional soldiers takes a lot of time and money, even keeping them in peace does. Meanwhile when need be, needs of war, losses or whatever, grabbing a bunch of peasants, giving them some hastily produced spears and basic armor, and training them in some basic muster and combat, meant he had a half-decent army in few weeks at a small fraction of the cost. That's also not exactly a peasant mob, and with enough resources could be no worse than less generously sponsored professional troops, but as with many things in these times, there was little to no standardization in such things.
But they didn't. Mongols fared even worse in southern Croatia than they did in Hungary, and were defeated by Crusaders and Mamluks in their only attempt to invade Levant.

In fact, Mamluks defeated Mongols in all battles except one, and heavily equipped Western European armies were nearly as successful against the Mongols as Mamluks were.

So while environmental conditions certainly played a part, they are hardly the explanation for Mongols successes and failures.
Seems like different environment problem could do it too:
A recent study claims that the Mongol defeat was in part caused by a short term climate anomaly following the eruption of Samalas volcano a few years earlier, stating that "a return to warmer and dryer conditions in the summer of 1260 CE, [...] likely reduced the regional carrying capacity and may therefore have forced a mass withdrawal of the Mongols from the region that contributed to the Mamluks' victory."[32]
 
Yes, that's the strategic skirmishing ability i talked about. The horse nomad armies were able to keep the initiative, being able to pick which battles happen, when and which to avoid (which in itself implies some battles would be bad for them to fight), and keep messing about, causing lots of disruption and damage, even if only to what was outside of castle walls.
To an extent, yes. But their ability to do so should not be overstated: Mongols have had quite a few battles forced onto them. In 1285. invasion, Hungarians used castles as bases to harass the Mongols, defeating them in many minor battles before destroying Talabuga's army in the hills of western Transylvania. Secondary Mongol column under Nogai was defeated in a similar manner.

Castles are not just fortifications. They are bases of operations, and it doesn't matter who you are, if you are operating in an area with many castles that you cannot take, you will get ambushed and mauled sooner or later.
Conquering also means breaking the walls and holding the conquered territory, which is something where the horse nomads lose their core advantage - they have to defend lands whenever they are attacked, instead of picking the time and place of their battles.
Precisely.
And yeah, i know the steppe horse nomads didn't fight just as archers, they also used a lot more normal cavalry. But both were extremely mobile forces which could be abused in some ways against less mobile armies.
Yeah, well, the post is about the horse archers. In fact, I wrote it because of my newest bout of pissed-off-at-Marin-for-shallow-Dothraki-sm.
Because training and equipping professional soldiers takes a lot of time and money, even keeping them in peace does. Meanwhile when need be, needs of war, losses or whatever, grabbing a bunch of peasants, giving them some hastily produced spears and basic armor, and training them in some basic muster and combat, meant he had a half-decent army in few weeks at a small fraction of the cost. That's also not exactly a peasant mob, and with enough resources could be no worse than less generously sponsored professional troops, but as with many things in these times, there was little to no standardization in such things.
There are degrees of professionalism between "fully professional soldiers" and "conscripted peasants".

Yes, medieval states did not have full-time professional soldiers - it was simply too expensive. Even the Byzantine Empire relied mostly on part-time soldiers. However, trained soldiers were too much of an advantage for society where warfare was basically default state of existence for them to skimp on training and simply collect a bunch of untrained peasants and give them weapons.

Doesn't mean it was never done, but it was not the default state of things.
Seems like different environment problem could do it too:
Indeed.
 
To an extent, yes. But their ability to do so should not be overstated: Mongols have had quite a few battles forced onto them. In 1285. invasion, Hungarians used castles as bases to harass the Mongols, defeating them in many minor battles before destroying Talabuga's army in the hills of western Transylvania. Secondary Mongol column under Nogai was defeated in a similar manner.

Castles are not just fortifications. They are bases of operations, and it doesn't matter who you are, if you are operating in an area with many castles that you cannot take, you will get ambushed and mauled sooner or later.
Yup. Though that requires armies to operate out of them being available in the first place.
But exploiting that part requires the nomads to plan their campaigns with patience, either long term harassment campaign of the outlying lands, which can cause enough poverty and chaos that in due time there won't even be much army available to staff and use the castles properly, damage which big and stable enough polities may be able to soak with their strategic depth anyway, or wait for an opportunity given by other events.

On the other hand in case of already less stable and well organized polities, horse nomads are well equipped to push them over the cliff quickly with their tactics.
Precisely.

Yeah, well, the post is about the horse archers. In fact, I wrote it because of my newest bout of pissed-off-at-Marin-for-shallow-Dothraki-sm.

There are degrees of professionalism between "fully professional soldiers" and "conscripted peasants".

Yes, medieval states did not have full-time professional soldiers - it was simply too expensive. Even the Byzantine Empire relied mostly on part-time soldiers. However, trained soldiers were too much of an advantage for society where warfare was basically default state of existence for them to skimp on training and simply collect a bunch of untrained peasants and give them weapons.

Doesn't mean it was never done, but it was not the default state of things.
Various forms of retainers, city militias, mercenaries and some other organizations generally provided the intermediate kind of troops between knights and levies.
And then there's the fact that spearmen were so universally common because one could train up a spearman from clueless peasant to a reasonable competence relatively quickly and cheaply, as opposed to, say, an armored horseman or longbowman.
 
Yup. Though that requires armies to operate out of them being available in the first place.
But exploiting that part requires the nomads to plan their campaigns with patience, either long term harassment campaign of the outlying lands, which can cause enough poverty and chaos that in due time there won't even be much army available to staff and use the castles properly, damage which big and stable enough polities may be able to soak with their strategic depth anyway, or wait for an opportunity given by other events.
That does indeed work, but such approach would take decades at least, and potentially centuries.

And nomads don't really have the manpower to take the losses, so ironically this strategy was used primarily by settled societies (e.g. Ottoman Empire).
On the other hand in case of already less stable and well organized polities, horse nomads are well equipped to push them over the cliff quickly with their tactics.
Agreed.
Various forms of retainers, city militias, mercenaries and some other organizations generally provided the intermediate kind of troops between knights and levies.
And then there's the fact that spearmen were so universally common because one could train up a spearman from clueless peasant to a reasonable competence relatively quickly and cheaply, as opposed to, say, an armored horseman or longbowman.
Spearmen were also historically common because spear is the best generalist melee weapon.

Pike is better than a spear in formation, but it requires a formation. Spear however is cheap, has good reach, can be used in formation and individual combat alike, and is good enough against armor. Other weapons are either inferior to spear in everything (short sword), difficult to use in formation (long sword, axe and other polearms), or simply relatively unwieldy (halberds and so on).
 
One also needs to look at the jungles of South Asia.
Areas that horse archers arnt really capable. Steppes are perfect for Horse Archers. Lot af places to move around
It's not just about movement, it is also about fodder. It is said that Mongol horses began starving when they entered southern Croatia during winter.
 
One also needs to look at the jungles of South Asia.
Areas that horse archers arnt really capable. Steppes are perfect for Horse Archers. Lot af places to move around
Wasn’t that one of the big reasons Vietnam managed to throw the Mongols back?

Then again, it’s Vietnam. That country has a habit of beating up bigger opponents.
 
It's not just about movement, it is also about fodder. It is said that Mongol horses began starving when they entered southern Croatia during winter.
Very true as well
Wasn’t that one of the big reasons Vietnam managed to throw the Mongols back?

Then again, it’s Vietnam. That country has a habit of beating up bigger opponents.
Well yeah, but the jungles have always been the antithesis of anything mobile that isn't feet
 

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