Historical Misconceptions

bintananth

behind a desk
With WWII, it's less an 'it was absolutely and utterly impossible on every level,' and more 'as far as things can be impossible, it was.' If the stars had aligned and every single Allied leader was incompetent, while every single Axis leader operated at the level of Rommel or Yamamoto, they might possibly have been able to win.

But, at the start of the war...

Germany had no ability to meet its own oil needs during peace-time, and lacked the naval capability to invade Britain. The only reason it succeeded against France, was French incompetence. Something a lot of people aren't aware of, is that the British were building combat aircraft faster than the Germans were during the Battle for Britain.

The Japanese lacked the strategic reach and logistical capacity to even try to invade the mainland US, and the ability to supply not only their own oil needs, but also their own steel needs. Hitting Pearl Harbor stretched their logistical capabilities, and they lacked the industrial capacity to make up for losses in a remotely meaningful manner.

People say 'It wasn't possible for the Axis to win,' because both powers not only lacked the ability to strike at their primary enemies in a manner that could knock them out of the war, they lacked the ability to gain that ability in a meaningful time-frame.

It would have taken Japan five to ten years of continuing unmolested military build up to have a chance at hitting just the American West Coast.. Germany similarly would have needed five to ten years of intense naval and aerial build-up to have a meaningful chance at invading Britain. Both of these scenarios would also require that British and American military strength remain static at pre-war levels.

As soon as the leadership of the Anglosphere decided that they were willing to stay in the fight long enough to win, the Axis were functionally doomed.

And this isn't even going into the variety of minor reasons they were functionally doomed from the start.
This is a decent explaination of why I dislike "what if's" where the Axis are expected to win.

They were always going to lose and it wasn't going to be close in any somewhat realistic scenario where the US says "hi".

US-550 in SW Colorado between Silverton and Ourey was actually more expensive to build than a superdreadnaught with 16" guns. Only seven of those were completed. An arms limitation treaty resulted in every other ship designed to use guns that big getting scrapped, cancelled, or turned into an aircraft carrier.
 

Yinko

Well-known member
With WWII, it's less an 'it was absolutely and utterly impossible on every level,' and more 'as far as things can be impossible, it was.' If the stars had aligned and every single Allied leader was incompetent, while every single Axis leader operated at the level of Rommel or Yamamoto, they might possibly have been able to win.
You are completely missing my point. By butterfly effect I meant bigger changes, much bigger. The two biggest things Hitler could have done to help himself are: not declare ware on the USA, not declare war on the USSR. Those two countries (mostly the USSR to be honest) did most of the work in the European theater. By the time operation Barbarossa got screwed up only England really stood against them in any meaningful way. Sure, the US might have tried to enter the war later, but at that point they would have already lost most potential footholds.
The third big thing they could have done: don't hold back against England just because they were racially similar to Germans. There were numerous things, such as anthrax attacks and bombings, assassinations and invasions, as well as failing to overtake the retreating British forces at Dunkirk that could have utterly crippled the British forces and allowed for the UK to be taken relatively early. However, Hitler didn't want to be too harsh on them because of their common ancestry.
 

ATP

Well-known member
You are completely missing my point. By butterfly effect I meant bigger changes, much bigger. The two biggest things Hitler could have done to help himself are: not declare ware on the USA, not declare war on the USSR. Those two countries (mostly the USSR to be honest) did most of the work in the European theater. By the time operation Barbarossa got screwed up only England really stood against them in any meaningful way. Sure, the US might have tried to enter the war later, but at that point they would have already lost most potential footholds.
The third big thing they could have done: don't hold back against England just because they were racially similar to Germans. There were numerous things, such as anthrax attacks and bombings, assassinations and invasions, as well as failing to overtake the retreating British forces at Dunkirk that could have utterly crippled the British forces and allowed for the UK to be taken relatively early. However, Hitler didn't want to be too harsh on them because of their common ancestry.

Soviets planned to backstab Hitler from the start - so,he must destroy them.
But - he could do smartly.
In the beginning,soviet soldiers mostly do not fight but surrender - if Hitler come as liberator,they would fight for him.
Germans would be on Ural in 1941.
Then,they could invade England - and,if they would pour their money into A bpmb,not V2,then they would have it in 1945.
After that - cold war with USA.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
You are completely missing my point. By butterfly effect I meant bigger changes, much bigger. The two biggest things Hitler could have done to help himself are: not declare ware on the USA, not declare war on the USSR. Those two countries (mostly the USSR to be honest) did most of the work in the European theater. By the time operation Barbarossa got screwed up only England really stood against them in any meaningful way. Sure, the US might have tried to enter the war later, but at that point they would have already lost most potential footholds.
The third big thing they could have done: don't hold back against England just because they were racially similar to Germans. There were numerous things, such as anthrax attacks and bombings, assassinations and invasions, as well as failing to overtake the retreating British forces at Dunkirk that could have utterly crippled the British forces and allowed for the UK to be taken relatively early. However, Hitler didn't want to be too harsh on them because of their common ancestry.

This is looking at only one side of the equation.

First, the British had chemical weapons as well. If the Germans started using chemical or biological weapons in their attacks on England, the British were entirely capable of retaliating in kind. And again, the British were outbuilding the Germans when it came to new-construction aircraft, and that's before you get into what the Americans started selling them as the war continued

I cannot overstate how important the MAD factor of chemical warfare was. Every part of Germany was within range of British bombardment, but this was not the case for Great Britain. Britain would doubtless be devastated, but Germany would have been gutted, and the nazi party likely overthrown for opening that box.

Second, not declaring war on Russia still doesn't build Germany a Navy capable of contesting the Royal Navy. Aircraft carriers are a moot point fighting in Europe and across the English channel, but the Kriegsmarine was inferior to the RN in every regard except for U-boats, and those U-boats were never enough to do more than harass. It takes years to build Battleships, at least a year or two to build a Heavy Cruiser or Light Cruiser, and nothing else was going to be able to contest the massive British naval superiority.

With the Luftwaffe incapable of defeating the RAF, even if Russia had not entered the war, Germany lacked the capability to knock the British out of the fight. And this is before you get into the issue that the nazi party's socialist policies were steadily eroding the institutional competence of German heavy industry.

And this isn't getting into how the ideology of the Nazis and the Soviets both ensured that they would eventually go to war with each other.

A more plausible alternate history is Germany launching Barbarossa a couple months earlier, and actually succeeding in taking Moscow. Russia still wouldn't quit, but their ability to contribute would be drastically reduced. Maybe in such an AU Germany would make peace with Britain in exchange for withdrawing from France, which would then be demilitarized, but that's unlikely. The British drew the line at the invasion of Poland, not France, and Churchill was very unlikely to back down on that.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
First, the British had chemical weapons as well. If the Germans started using chemical or biological weapons in their attacks on England, the British were entirely capable of retaliating in kind. And again, the British were outbuilding the Germans when it came to new-construction aircraft, and that's before you get into what the Americans started selling them as the war continued
Oh, the British had nasty biological weapons and tested one of them to see just how destructive they were:


That Island was unsafe to set foot on for several decades. The nukes the US dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't render those cities uninhabitable for several decades.
 
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