Heavy Cavalry Versus Infantry - Charging the Lines

[Aldarion]

Heavy Cavalry Versus Infantry – Charging the Lines

Heavy cavalry charging the lines of infantry is an awesome sight in historical fiction and fantasy alike. It is difficult to forget Eomer’s charge at Helm’s Deep or the charge of the Ro…

warfantasy.wordpress.com

Introduction

Heavy cavalry charging the lines of infantry is an awesome sight in historical fiction and fantasy alike. It is difficult to forget Eomer's charge at Helm's Deep or the charge of the Rohirrim at Pelennor.

Yet revisionist historiography exists which holds that the impact of charge of heavy cavalry was based solely on morale. Argument is that horses cannot be trained to charge through, or even at, the solid wall of pointy things. By this explanation, the entire heavy cavalry charge is based solely on morale, a "who blinks the first" game of nerves. If infantry stays in formation, then cavalry will not charge infantry even if said infantry is armed with wet paper and harsh language.

But is that really the case? To determine this, I will look at a number of examples through history.

 

[ATP]

Heavy Cavalry Versus Infantry – Charging the Lines

Heavy cavalry charging the lines of infantry is an awesome sight in historical fiction and fantasy alike. It is difficult to forget Eomer’s charge at Helm’s Deep or the charge of the Ro…

warfantasy.wordpress.com

Introduction

Heavy cavalry charging the lines of infantry is an awesome sight in historical fiction and fantasy alike. It is difficult to forget Eomer's charge at Helm's Deep or the charge of the Rohirrim at Pelennor.

Yet revisionist historiography exists which holds that the impact of charge of heavy cavalry was based solely on morale. Argument is that horses cannot be trained to charge through, or even at, the solid wall of pointy things. By this explanation, the entire heavy cavalry charge is based solely on morale, a "who blinks the first" game of nerves. If infantry stays in formation, then cavalry will not charge infantry even if said infantry is armed with wet paper and harsh language.

But is that really the case? To determine this, I will look at a number of examples through history.

Mostly true,with two additions:
1.Polish winged hussarls had lances 6m long,longer that pikes of infrantry - that is why they could break through them.
In case of moscovite pikemans who do not use armours,one lance sometimes killed 6 in the row.
When they faced cyvilized opponets,they killed only first row - that is why they retreat for new kopia to charge again.
Or used pistols at close distance.

2.Polish calvary till 1792 still used lances,when other nation abadonned them,so they could break through infrantry,becouse bayonets lacked range to hurt them.
That is why everybody copied polish lancers after we supported Napoleon.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Good article. That does seem to be a historical warfare brain bug. I blame Gandhi.

 

[Buba]

When looking at Polish "winged hussars" one must be doubly cautious as to terminology.
In Polish
kopia = heavy lance held under arm
and
lanca = spear/lance held in hand

BTW - Polish borrowed Hungarian "hussar" twice, once as "husaria" for the medium cavalry with lances, and the second time as "huzarzy" for the light cavalry in silly jackets.

Considering what I've read about how hussaria lances were made, skewering six dudes is deep in "no shit! I ... " post battle bullshiting tales. ATM - you really should not believe everything you read <3

 

[Aldarion]

Considering what I've read about how hussaria lances were made, skewering six dudes is deep in "no shit! I ... " post battle bullshiting tales. ATM - you really should not believe everything you read <3

If they are unarmored, why not? Hollow lances were weaker than the heavy lances, but were longer and were still quite strong.

 

[Buba]

Dey break on first, second guy latest?

 

[Aldarion]

Dey break on first, second guy latest?

I'm not sure lances would break that easily, not against guys with no armor. Issue I see with that "six kebabs on a stick" thing is related more to an angle of the lance - hussar will have been higher up than the guys he is skewering, so can he really nail six of them before lance point goes too low?

 

[Buba]

Issue I see with that "six kebabs on a stick" thing is related more to an angle of the lance - hussar will have been higher up than the guys he is skewering, so can he really nail six of them before lance point goes too low?

This too.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Even if the six guys are all 50 kg manlets, the force of impact plus increasing weight would break the lance at third guy tops.

 

[ATP]

When looking at Polish "winged hussars" one must be doubly cautious as to terminology.
In Polish
kopia = heavy lance held under arm
and
lanca = spear/lance held in hand

BTW - Polish borrowed Hungarian "hussar" twice, once as "husaria" for the medium cavalry with lances, and the second time as "huzarzy" for the light cavalry in silly jackets.

Considering what I've read about how hussaria lances were made, skewering six dudes is deep in "no shit! I ... " post battle bullshiting tales. ATM - you really should not believe everything you read <3

Kopia could be held under arm,but usually it was connected to saddle,which mean that it hit with strenght of horse and hussarl,not hussar alone.Which,including armour and other stuff,could be up to 800kg or more.

So,there was enough strenght for skewering 6 people.And,i get it from memories of experienced soldiers who fought moscovities in those battles.And,they wrote that it was rare,and usually there was 2-4 dudes on one kopia.

Moscovites feared winged hussarls to the point,that they refused to fight in open,and we must win battles in 1660 besieging them in their fortified camps.But - winged hussarls still win.

 

[Buba]

Even if the six guys are all 50 kg manlets, the force of impact plus increasing weight would break the lance at third guy tops.

Now you made me imagine chibi streltsy ...

 

[Agent23]

kopia = heavy lance held under arm

In Bulgarian it is just plural for spears, копие - Translation from Bulgarian into English | PONS.

Personally, I never understand much of the difference between a pike, a lance a javelin and a spear.

That translation I linked says one of them is "thin spear"

Big rod with pointy end for stabbing enemy.

The word also literally means 'copy'.

 

[Aldarion]

Personally, I never understand much of the difference between a pike, a lance a javelin and a spear.

All of them are spears, but...

Spear - spear which is sized for one-on-one combat. This means that it has to be relatively light, is usually held in one hand, and is not too long: some 6 to 9 feet seems to be a general range, and never longer than 10 feet.

Pike - long spear, usually dedicated for use against cavalry. This means that it has to be long-ish, and heavily built to try and withstand the impact of a charging horse or man on a horse. Byzantine menaulion was some 9 to 12 feet long and very thick - basically a small tree trunk. Cutoff between a spear and a pike is when it becomes too long for use in one hand - generally at around 9 feet. Note that hewing spear, while it can be as long as shorter pikes (cca 8 to 9 ft), is not a pike because it is designed primarily for one-on-one combat. Pikes are, essentially, spears which are too long for individual combat and have to be used in a formation.

Lance - spear that is dedicated for use on horseback. This means that it has to be long enough to reach past horse's head, and is stereotypically used couched under the arm - though during antiquity two-handed usage was more common. Early lances were some 6 ft long, but by 15th century length of heavy (knightly) lances has increased to 4 meters (13 feet), and by 16th century length of 5,5 meters (18 feet) was not uncommon.

Javelin - a spear that is dedicated for throwing. Depending on type and usage, javelins could be anywhere from 4 to 8 feet in length, and nearly always had a thinner shaft compared to spears of same length.

 

[ATP]

All of them are spears, but...

Spear - spear which is sized for one-on-one combat. This means that it has to be relatively light, is usually held in one hand, and is not too long: some 6 to 9 feet seems to be a general range, and never longer than 10 feet.

Pike - long spear, usually dedicated for use against cavalry. This means that it has to be long-ish, and heavily built to try and withstand the impact of a charging horse or man on a horse. Byzantine menaulion was some 9 to 12 feet long and very thick - basically a small tree trunk. Cutoff between a spear and a pike is when it becomes too long for use in one hand - generally at around 9 feet. Note that hewing spear, while it can be as long as shorter pikes (cca 8 to 9 ft), is not a pike because it is designed primarily for one-on-one combat. Pikes are, essentially, spears which are too long for individual combat and have to be used in a formation.

Lance - spear that is dedicated for use on horseback. This means that it has to be long enough to reach past horse's head, and is stereotypically used couched under the arm - though during antiquity two-handed usage was more common. Early lances were some 6 ft long, but by 15th century length of heavy (knightly) lances has increased to 4 meters (13 feet), and by 16th century length of 5,5 meters (18 feet) was not uncommon.

Javelin - a spear that is dedicated for throwing. Depending on type and usage, javelins could be anywhere from 4 to 8 feet in length, and nearly always had a thinner shaft compared to spears of same length.

Indeed,but winged hussarl kopia/lance/ not only had 5,5-6m,but also could be connected to saddle,and,as a result,hit with strenght of entire horse and its rider.

 

[Buba]

Indeed,but winged hussarl kopia/lance/ not only had 5,5-6m,but also could be connected to saddle,and,as a result,hit with strenght of entire horse and its rider.

If connected to sadle - how does a kopia not break when we have 800kg moving at 40km/h coming to a standing stop?

 

[ATP]

If connected to sadle - how does a kopia not break when we have 800kg moving at 40km/h coming to a standing stop?

It always break,but if it skewered 3-4 dudes in row,it was worth it.
We even have proverb from that time - when we think that fight is not worth it ,then we say,that "Nie ma o co kruszyć kopii" /it is not worth breaking lance - my translation/

 

[Zachowon]

@Aldarion I recommend reading the historical accounts of the Polish King John III during the Siege of Vienna.
There is a whole thing about it, and I would recommend reading it.
It breaks down every aspect both positive and negative about the Poles.

If you need too, I can find the stuff

 

[Aldarion]

@Aldarion I recommend reading the historical accounts of the Polish King John III during the Siege of Vienna.
There is a whole thing about it, and I would recommend reading it.
It breaks down every aspect both positive and negative about the Poles.

If you need too, I can find the stuff

I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

 

[Zachowon]

I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

Polish manuscripts, or, The secret history of the reign of John Sobieski the III, of that name, K. of Poland containing a particular account of the siege of Vienna ... with the letters that passed on that occasion betwixt the Emperor, King of Poland,