ASOIAF/GOT General ASOIAF discussion

[Deleted member 88]

I’m surprised we don’t have one.

This thread is for general discussion of ASOIAF-the books and the show. Not fanfiction, as there is a separate thread for that.

Feel free to discuss the past five books, the tv series, the winds of winter, and dream of spring and any theories/speculation/complaints you might have.

To start off with, I think the show did one thing right-that is age up the characters by an average of five years. Having Sansa and Daenerys be as young as they are leads to a lot of icky scenes and unpleasant implications, especially for the male characters around them.

Secondly, I can understand the appeal of Stannis but I’ve always considered him someone who is driven by resentments against being Robert’s middle brother and feelings he was owed Storm’s End. Also, the man’s lack of empathy in the sample
Theon chapter did not warm me to him at all.

Anyway, feel free to discuss the series!

 

[CarlManvers2019]

To start off with, I think the show did one thing right-that is age up the characters by an average of five years. Having Sansa and Daenerys be as young as they are leads to a lot of icky scenes and unpleasant implications, especially for the male characters around them.

I'm honestly squicked out how it barely raises an eyebrow to have a stepmother who is barely a few years younger or older than you

And actually DOES look like a real child who's barely even remotely physically developed

Hell, I bet even Hoster Tully could not remotely COMPREHEND as to WHY Lysa Tully would be disgusted at the idea of marrying someone old enough to be her Great-Grandfather. Nor was he weirded out that his own "Son-In-Law" was decades older than him.

 

[Deleted member 88]

One thing I do wonder is how the aegon plot and the Riverlands stuff will intersect. Given that Aegon will take King’s Landing while the Lannister forces in the Riverlands are about to be slaughtered and fading away due to attrition.

How will aegon deal with the riverlords and brotherhood? LSH?

 

[Buba]

I agree on the up ageing by the televised fanfic.
And this goes beyond GRRM being a perv and serving us lolicon shit - Robb makes his RL analogy - Alexander of Macedon - pale in comparison. Yeah, 15 year old who previously had not traveled outside his parish is running a successful country-wide campaign with multiple fronts ...

Hell, I bet even Hoster Tully could not remotely COMPREHEND as to WHY Lysa Tully would be disgusted at the idea of marrying someone old enough to be her Great-Grandfather. Nor was he weirded out that his own "Son-In-Law" was decades older than him.

Marrying 15 year old girls to old codgers because money and/or dynastic alliances is OTL. This GRRM got right.

 

[Deleted member 88]

One thing I can not stand about Robb’s campaign is how he uses magic to get into the Westerlands. And somehow evades the Leffords, using a pass they somehow never knew about. Despite being in the area for centuries.

We’re supposed to see Robb as a brilliant commander and tactician, but he has to skinchange his direwolf to get into the west.

He also defeats Jaimie because Jaimie is so lackadaisical he doesn’t delegate scouting.

Also his plan with regards to Edmure-I find really risky. I understand the reasoning if Stannis takes KL then Tywin is finished, that doesn’t mean Robb wins. Tywin can defeat Robb-on his home ground. Kind of pointless if Robb dies in the west, in some battle near Goldengrove, and then Tywin hears about the fall of the capital. I mean sure Tywin would be finished too but if Robb is captured or dead then the northern cause is lost. At least for him anyway.

Basically I’m not too impressed with Robb as a general.

 

[Buba]

He also defeats Jaimie because Jaimie is so lackadaisical he doesn’t delegate scouting.

Jaime - a brilliant jock and a demon under the blankets - is otherwise stupid and lazy.

Basically I’m not too impressed with Robb as a general.

Well, he is 15

 

[Deleted member 88]

Jaime - a brilliant jock and a demon under the blankets - is otherwise stupid and lazy.

A jock yes. As for under the blankets-given he only sleeps with cersei, I would think that’s somewhat unprovable. Not just lazy, apparently command is just so boring he needs to go out and scout himself, as opposed to you know sending out someone who is expendable. Jaimie has to be active, he’s got to be out there. Even if this means he can be captured or caught off guard by enemy outriders and ambushers.

Well, he is 15

Hence the straining of my SOD.

Also it’s flat out stated Robb defeats Stafford, the siblings Lannister idiot uncle. Literally they all consider him stupid or dull headed at least. I’m sorry but defeating Tywin’s unimaginative and not very bright cousin who was conscripting a third stream army is just not impressive, its outright below mediocre.

 

[Buba]

As for under the blankets-given he only sleeps with cersei, I would think that’s somewhat unprovable.

Don't sweat it - that was my sense of humour (of suspect quality) shining through

 

[Typhonis]

How old was Jaime when he was made a Kingsguard and did he learn any large scale tactics while he was one? I mean I don't see a pressing need for members of the Kingsguard to be formation commanders.

 

[Argent]

How old was Jaime when he was made a Kingsguard and did he learn any large scale tactics while he was one? I mean I don't see a pressing need for members of the Kingsguard to be formation commanders.

From what I remember is that Jamie never took to anything but the basics for the three Rs and other aspects of being a Lord. Jamie only wanted to be a Knight and focused on swordplay and simply ignored the rest of it.

I am also sure that spending his time being a bodyguard with little to do but screw Cersei and stand around did nothing for his growth. Not to mention that for all the talk about Tywin being great and caring about his family legacy he sure did suck at building one. He chased his onlybsmart child away, missed any warning signs of crazy and his overreactions made sure his family was doomed.

 

[Buba]

1 - How old was Jaime when he was made a Kingsguard and 2 - did he learn any large scale tactics while he was one? 3 - I mean I don't see a pressing need for members of the Kingsguard to be formation commanders.

1 - He was 15/16.
2 - We do not know either way. He could had been taught large scale tactics during his squiring, though.
3 - There is no pressing need, but there is a practical need. The KG represent the King and thus can/should command parts/all of Crownlands' forces. And stand in as neutral candidates for commanders if forces from various Realms are present and egos need to be stroked. Also, the Lord Commander sits on the Small Council and should be the Army Minister (there is a Navy Minister).

Still, I do not see Ser Jaime as learning large scale tactics. He trains, stands around looking pretty, has clandestine sex with sister, hurls children out of windows ... that's his life. He has no interests.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I am also sure that spending his time being a bodyguard with little to do but screw Cersei and stand around did nothing for his growth. Not to mention that for all the talk about Tywin being great and caring about his family legacy he sure did suck at building one. He chased his onlybsmart child away, missed any warning signs of crazy and his overreactions made sure his family was doomed.

I think that Tywin only cares that someone descended from him takes over

He chases his only smart child away, mostly due to the whole Joanna thing and him considering Tyrion to be eternally embarassing, specifically for being a dwarf

He probably could care less if the son or grandson who takes over for him is a complete imbecile or likely to be so evil that he scares most Lords into thinking it wouldn’t be safe to bend the knee at all

I honestly think it’s almost the same for many other Lords

They sure as hell probably don’t care for details like “Would I or my descendents remotely be good with handling the economics of this area or be remotely able to develop the land”?

No, all they want is to just own it, nevermind if under their rule whatever treasures the place has decreases significantly because they increased taxes by 900% or killed off the guys who are experts when it comes to the local agriculture

Hell, they might even murder the best traders or craftsmen or smiths along the way

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Filthy casual TV show watcher here.

I sorta liked the first season. Mainly, I liked when it was about Ned running the kingdom. Administering justice, listening to the problems of the people, putting out bounties, getting loans from the bank to fund tournaments, etc. Those were the most interesting parts of the show. Robert was also fun.

I didn't like the rest of the show. Didn't care for Starks vs Lannisters, didn't care for the Dragon lady. After Ned died, watching the 5 minutes of council meetings per season in Kingslanding was the best part of the show. Otherwise, I only really cared for the Night's Watch segments. I thought that the discount Scourge were boring (well, I guess the Scourge might actually be expies of the Others, but from what I hear the book Others were very different and not mindless zombies, and besides Wrath pretty much codified the ice zombie army trope, so...), but Jon and Sam were likeable and the wilderness survival segments up north were interesting. I also liked Stannis and Davos and the daughter. They were cool. I wanted them to win. But then... well... yeah.

As the show went on and all of the likeable, morally righteous characters died, my investment dwindled, but I kept watching because the production quality is very high and the sets and costumes and digital matte paintings and big battles were cool to look at. But by season 7, I could hardly bother to watch and kinda just started skipping through the episodes and just wanted to see how it ended. Also didn't help that the show was comically nihilistic.

As far as GoT ripoffs go, I watched Marco Polo on Netflix, which looks stunning. Best photography of sets and costumes I've ever seen. Unfortunately the story and characters were abysmal. I also watched The Last Kingdom season 1 and thought it was extremely meh, except for one good part: the episode where he was given ownership of a small village that was trying to manage and when he went raiding enemy territory for profit. But then it quickly devolved back into being a low budget war epic/cheesy political thriller and I stopped caring. If the show was more like that one episode, about him managing his lands and leading a raiding party for profit, I would have liked it more.

I have zero faith in the Amazon LotR series. Sounds like it's just going to be GoT but with LotR names slapped on it, highly materialistic and nihilistic and completely missing the point of the source material, but that's Hollywood, which I've checked out on. Haven't seen any Western shows since GoT ended, and I have no intention to do so until the culture changes.

Uh, sorry for the rant.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Marrying 15 year old girls to old codgers because money and/or dynastic alliances is OTL. This GRRM got right.

I’d expect for at least some degree of understanding of why she’d in part grow a decades long grudge against daddy for marrying her to an old wrinkly old man

The amount of squick there is, is something he probably never cared about

Doing your own “duty” and expecting others to be as “self sacrificing” as you when you “sacrifice” them can be really fucking douchey

Even if you yourself maybe willing to maybe do....that really disgusting shit

Then again, Hoster’s not the one who has to lie with a man old enough to be his great grandfather

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Just a thought, how exactly did House Durrandon/Baratheon come up with the decision to use a Stag for their sigil?

What do Stags have to do with Storms?

 

[Airedale260]

I agree on the up ageing by the televised fanfic.
And this goes beyond GRRM being a perv and serving us lolicon shit - Robb makes his RL analogy - Alexander of Macedon - pale in comparison. Yeah, 15 year old who previously had not traveled outside his parish is running a successful country-wide campaign with multiple fronts ...


Marrying 15 year old girls to old codgers because money and/or dynastic alliances is OTL. This GRRM got right.

One thing I can not stand about Robb’s campaign is how he uses magic to get into the Westerlands. And somehow evades the Leffords, using a pass they somehow never knew about. Despite being in the area for centuries.

Doesn't necessarily mean they didn't know about it, just that they didn't think anyone could get an army through it. Some other people once thought the same thing about an area they knew well but believed impassable and therefore could safely ignore. That area being "The Ardennes" and the people being "The French High Command in 1940." Such idiocy is impressive but not unheard of.

He also defeats Jaimie because Jaimie is so lackadaisical he doesn’t delegate scouting.

Actually it wasn't that Jaime didn't delegate, it's that Jaime was bored and too stupid to think "Hey, the army would be screwed if I got captured or killed...maybe I shouldn't go rushing off on something extremely risky just because I'm impatient." Jaime is an excellent swordsman, yes, but he doesn't know shit about military command.

Also his plan with regards to Edmure-I find really risky. I understand the reasoning if Stannis takes KL then Tywin is finished, that doesn’t mean Robb wins. Tywin can defeat Robb-on his home ground. Kind of pointless if Robb dies in the west, in some battle near Goldengrove, and then Tywin hears about the fall of the capital. I mean sure Tywin would be finished too but if Robb is captured or dead then the northern cause is lost. At least for him anyway.

Remember, though, that Robb didn't really want the crown in the first place. His bannermen acclaimed him king -Stannis hadn't declared Joffrey and his siblings bastards. So it's easy for Robb to bend the knee if Stannis says "Look, your dad knew I was the legitimate heir; see this, this, and this." Stannis executes Joffrey (or gives him to Robb to execute), returns Sansa alive and unharmed... everybody wins. Well, except the Lannisters and maybe the Tyrells but fuck them.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Remember, though, that Robb didn't really want the crown in the first place. His bannermen acclaimed him king -Stannis hadn't declared Joffrey and his siblings bastards. So it's easy for Robb to bend the knee if Stannis says "Look, your dad knew I was the legitimate heir; see this, this, and this." Stannis executes Joffrey (or gives him to Robb to execute), returns Sansa alive and unharmed... everybody wins. Well, except the Lannisters and maybe the Tyrells but fuck them.

If Robb lures Tywin into the West, Stannis takes the capital, unless the Tyrells were willing to come to the city's defense on their own(which I'm not sure-as the alliance had been negotiated before hand), Robb has to face Tywin in the Westerlands. He can either try to run back to Riverrun, the capital having fallen-or he has to face Tywin's army.

Robb could win, or Tywin could win-Tywin's lost the war anyway if Stannis takes the capital, but still if Robb dies upon a Lannister pike what good is that?

As for Robb and Stannis, eh? I mean Stannis considered him a usurper, and Robb's bannermen would not respect him if he just up and yielded. But I've had similar debates in the past.

Ultimately if Robb and Stannis fight, it will be because one man has demands the other cannot abide by. And this isn't post ASOS Stannis, so I can see him just demanding Robb submit to judgement for usurpation, anyway.

 

[Airedale260]

If Robb lures Tywin into the West, Stannis takes the capital, unless the Tyrells were willing to come to the city's defense on their own(which I'm not sure-as the alliance had been negotiated before hand), Robb has to face Tywin in the Westerlands. He can either try to run back to Riverrun, the capital having fallen-or he has to face Tywin's army.

Robb could win, or Tywin could win-Tywin's lost the war anyway if Stannis takes the capital, but still if Robb dies upon a Lannister pike what good is that?

As for Robb and Stannis, eh? I mean Stannis considered him a usurper, and Robb's bannermen would not respect him if he just up and yielded. But I've had similar debates in the past.

Ultimately if Robb and Stannis fight, it will be because one man has demands the other cannot abide by. And this isn't post ASOS Stannis, so I can see him just demanding Robb submit to judgement for usurpation, anyway.

Actually, Robb doesn't; Tywin's army is mixed but largely infantry whereas Robb's entire force is mounted. It'd be really difficult to actually go after them, especially when Maege Mormont and Greatjon Umber are stirring shit up in other parts of the Westerlands.

Oh, sure, Tywin *might* capture Robb if he's lucky and Robb is really stupid. But the odds of that are about as good as getting a perfect NCAA bracket. And even then, what good does that do? Tywin caught Robb. Too bad the whole reason he's fighting is his grandson on the Iron Throne...oh, what do you mean he's been executed? And that the rest of the realm is united against him?

It was actually a sound plan; one can debate the wisdom of not letting Edmure in on key details so he didn't do what he did, sure. But overall it only really failed because of author fiat.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Oh, sure, Tywin *might* capture Robb if he's lucky and Robb is really stupid. But the odds of that are about as good as getting a perfect NCAA bracket. And even then, what good does that do? Tywin caught Robb. Too bad the whole reason he's fighting is his grandson on the Iron Throne...oh, what do you mean he's been executed? And that the rest of the realm is united against him?

Tywin executes Robb then and there in that case. Of course Tywin is doomed anyway, but still.

It was actually a sound plan; one can debate the wisdom of not letting Edmure in on key details so he didn't do what he did, sure. But overall it only really failed because of author fiat.

Eh? I hear this a lot. The Lannisters and Starks both had good rolls and bad rolls, if we are using a dice analogy, but the Lannisters got more fives and sixes when it counted.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Tywin executes Robb then and there in that case. Of course Tywin is doomed anyway, but still.

Honestly, I really wonder what Tywin’s longterm reaction would be to having to deal with Joffrey as King

I’m guessing Tywin would essentially have to rule in his stead for decades