Five minutes of hate news

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul

Samsung "authorized technician" cuts customer's TV screen to void his warranty and avoid having to stay later than he'd like. Yet people continue to claim that "authorized technicians" care about customers and continue to rail against 3rd party companies and self-repair because they're morons.
 

Poe

Well-known member
Islam denies the deity of Christ, that He died on the cross, and that He was resurrected.

These are all absolutely essential to Christianity.

Islam also teaches that while the Torah and Bible are prior 'revelations,' they are corrupted, and the Koran is the one, true revelation.

Further, what it teaches about God's character is radically different.
No one said it was the exact same religion, just that christianity is closer to it than any other religion. Early Christianity also had tons of sects that denied all of those things that doesn't change that they were christian. The only thing that can claim to be closer is Messianic Judaism, which is a form of christianity so can't really pretend to a different religion. Mainstream Judaism rejects Jesus even as a prophet and thus there just isn't another religion you can say is closer to Christianity than Islam.
Also, what is this nonsense about Islam being considered a christian heresy until 1800? You are literally the first person I've ever heard say this, and I grew up among missionaries in the muslim world.
Your upbringing is unrelated to the conversation and your use of the word nonsense is hilarious here considering, but it is hard for me to imagine you've never heard of this if that were true. Maybe thats why these missionaries have had little success. Anyway it's common knowledge that Islam was considered a Christian heresy by Christians during the middle ages and early modern era.

 

Yinko

Well-known member
No one said it was the exact same religion, just that christianity is closer to it than any other religion. Early Christianity also had tons of sects that denied all of those things that doesn't change that they were christian. The only thing that can claim to be closer is Messianic Judaism, which is a form of christianity so can't really pretend to a different religion. Mainstream Judaism rejects Jesus even as a prophet and thus there just isn't another religion you can say is closer to Christianity than Islam.

Your upbringing is unrelated to the conversation and your use of the word nonsense is hilarious here considering, but it is hard for me to imagine you've never heard of this if that were true. Maybe thats why these missionaries have had little success. Anyway it's common knowledge that Islam was considered a Christian heresy by Christians during the middle ages and early modern era.

I also only recently heard this, though I may have heard it before I didn't remember it at all. It does put the missionary acts of Ramon Llull into a different perspective though.

Also, the Gnostics and several other heresies were less aligned with traditional Christianity than Islam is, so from that perspective it makes sense, especially in the context of the time. "If Cathars and Gnostics are Christian heresies, then how would it even make sense for Islam to not be one?"
 

ATP

Well-known member
Islam denies the deity of Christ, that He died on the cross, and that He was resurrected.

These are all absolutely essential to Christianity.

Islam also teaches that while the Torah and Bible are prior 'revelations,' they are corrupted, and the Koran is the one, true revelation.

Further, what it teaches about God's character is radically different.

Also, what is this nonsense about Islam being considered a christian heresy until 1800? You are literally the first person I've ever heard say this, and I grew up among missionaries in the muslim world.
Not till 1800,but for first 100 years.Becouse for ERE chronicles they were treated as heretics,not another religion, at least for first 100 years of its existence.
And,thanks to such chronicles we knew that first muslims prayed face to Jerusalem,not Mecca.

@King Arts , it is Machomet.And he is burning with Brutus,if i remember correctly.
 

Bigking321

Well-known member

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Shrug. It's fine if he believes that.

My opinion is to keep it up until they admit their mistake and apologize.

Plus bud light is garbage. Drink something better.
They won't and will just but thier popularity again.
Look at UFC, Kid Rock and now Trump
 

ATP

Well-known member
You do realize that Dante's Inferno is Christian fanfiction, and not scripture or Church tradition, right? At least to the best of my knowledge with the last one.
True.And Dante send to his Hell not only people who deserved it,like Mochamet,but many political enemies.He belonged to pro-HRE party/Gibelin/ ,when his enemies belonged to pro-pope party/Gwelf/ -thus many popes and cardinals in his Hell which could be sinners or not,but certainly opposed HRE.

It is as if somebody in USA now send to his hell all members of party he do not like.

P.S In case of sending Democrats to Hell,it could be even right....
 
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LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Early Christianity also had tons of sects that denied all of those things that doesn't change that they were christian.
No, it absolutely does make them not Christian.

'Christian' means 'follower of Christ.' Christ taught some very specific things, and behaved in very specific ways. The claim to being the messiah, to being divine, was not just an essential part of who Jesus claimed to be, but the reason why he was executed.

If someone rejects the teachings and life of Christ, they are not a Christian, it's that simple.

It'd be like agreeing someone counts as a Libertarian, as they explain to you why a large, all-controlling moral-busybody state is a good thing.

Your upbringing is unrelated to the conversation and your use of the word nonsense is hilarious here considering, but it is hard for me to imagine you've never heard of this if that were true. Maybe thats why these missionaries have had little success. Anyway it's common knowledge that Islam was considered a Christian heresy by Christians during the middle ages and early modern era.

'Common knowledge' doesn't exactly fit, given I have not heard this referenced in any history book, historical fiction, personal account from a Muslim, personal account from a Christian, etc, etc. Thinking back, I vaguely recall mentions of theologians debated whether or not Islam would count as X, but not as anything remotely resembling a 'it was in general thought that.'

Given that by 1800 there'd been over a thousand years of almost unremitting warfare between the Islamic and Christian worlds, I'm going to take the idea it was 'widely considered' a christian heresy with a significant grain of salt.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
You do realize that Dante's Inferno is Christian fanfiction, and not scripture or Church tradition, right? At least to the best of my knowledge with the last one.
Yes it’s not really scripture or tradition. But many people believe much of what is there is true. And it doesn’t matter really. My argument was that people thought Muhammad was a heretic who created something that stole people away from the truth of Christianity. It would be the same if I said people thought that Cleopatra was a whore and seductress, and my evidence was Dante’s inferno putting her in the circle of lust. Whether she was a slut or not is not important only that some people thought she was and there is no evidence of others arguing against it.
 

mrttao

Well-known member

Poe

Well-known member
No, it absolutely does make them not Christian.

'Christian' means 'follower of Christ.' Christ taught some very specific things, and behaved in very specific ways. The claim to being the messiah, to being divine, was not just an essential part of who Jesus claimed to be, but the reason why he was executed.

If someone rejects the teachings and life of Christ, they are not a Christian, it's that simple.

It'd be like agreeing someone counts as a Libertarian, as they explain to you why a large, all-controlling moral-busybody state is a good thing.
One can follow christ without believing him divine, he also never taught such a thing outright and you are projecting Pauline christianity on to all christian sects even though there are literally christian sects recorded who do not believe this. The gospels don't say a lot of what you clearly consider christian, most of that is in the letters of Paul. Your opinion of it isn't relevant to this and I don't give a damn if you think it makes these sects not christian as I'm not asking for your opinion I'm stating that there are historical christian sects that hold each of the beliefs you say disqualify Islam from being like christianity (which is itself irrelevant to what we're talking about anyway, which is closeness.)

Anyway, you've now completely stopped discussing the main thing we're talking about. That Islam is closest to christianity.

'Common knowledge' doesn't exactly fit, given I have not heard this referenced in any history book, historical fiction, personal account from a Muslim, personal account from a Christian, etc, etc. Thinking back, I vaguely recall mentions of theologians debated whether or not Islam would count as X, but not as anything remotely resembling a 'it was in general thought that.'

Given that by 1800 there'd been over a thousand years of almost unremitting warfare between the Islamic and Christian worlds, I'm going to take the idea it was 'widely considered' a christian heresy with a significant grain of salt.
Again, you not knowing something isn't a benchmark I care about. A simple google search of "Islam Christian Heresy" pulls up pages of links proving that it was considered as such by christians until the modern era. This wasn't meant to be anything other than one of two points of proof that even Christians and Muslims consider themselves to be very closely related religions. I can't help that you think you would know about this if it were true or whatever, but that doesn't prove anything about it not being widely known it just shows you aren't as educated or informed as you're letting on.
 
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LordsFire

Internet Wizard
One can follow christ without believing him divine, he also never taught such a thing outright and you are projecting Pauline christianity on to all christian sects even though there are literally christian sects recorded who do not believe this. The gospels don't say a lot of what you clearly consider christian, most of that is in the letters of Paul. Your opinion of it isn't relevant to this and I don't give a damn if you think it makes these sects not christian as I'm not asking for your opinion I'm stating that there are historical christian sects that hold each of the beliefs you say disqualify Islam from being like christianity (which is itself irrelevant to what we're talking about anyway, which is closeness.)

Anyway, you've now completely stopped discussing the main thing we're talking about. That Islam is closest to christianity.
If your conception of what Christianity is fundamentally wrong, there's no point in arguing over how similar it is or isn't to Islam.

To whit:

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

Jesus claiming divinity; people moved to stone him for saying this, because he was claiming divinity.

Luke 7:48-49: "Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" "


I could go on with other quotes from Christ, no need for the pauline epistles, but the point is Christ as divinity is not a 'Pauline Gospel,' it is what Christ himself claimed to be.


So yes, those who claim Christ, but deny His teachings, are not in fact Christians, because they defy the meaning of the word. If your conception of 'Christian' includes those who reject the core of Christianity, then it's little wonder that you think Islam is 'close' to it, because you've made the category so broad as to be almost meaningless.


Even then, while Islam could reasonably be said to be closer to Christianity than polytheism, it certainly still isn't closer to it than Judaism. The Torah and the Jewish prophets teach the same vision of God as the Christian Bible does, the Jews simply refuse to accept Christ as the Messiah.

Islam, on the other hand, teaches a view of god that is closer to the (inaccurate) stereotypes of the old testament, a lot of wrath and vengeance, not much Love, grace, or patience. Further, instead of God forgiving man in spite of man's sin, Islam teaches that one earn's God's forgiveness through moral excellence. These are fundamentally incompatible ways of viewing the nature of divinity.

At this point, I feel obliged to ask, what are your religious beliefs?
 

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