Five minutes of hate news

then what was this

I took a swing at the ancap idea of "free market", that is a market with absolutely 0 government regulation and oversight. And you gave me the above.

The USA has had steady federal and state encroachment on the economy for more than a hundred years now. It hasn't been a genuine 'free market' for a century, and has gotten further and further from that over the decades.

Funnily enough, entrenched corporations, difficulty entering markets, and general levels of corruption, have increased as the regulatory state has increased, not to mention causing things like the 2008 crash, crippling the growth of the energy industry, etc.

You talk like the situation we're in right now is the result of the 'free market,' but that is manifestly untrue. Our market is closer to 'free' than what most of the rest of the world has, but it is not an actual free market. Blaming libertarianism (and I'm not a libertarian, btw), and free-market economics for the problems of corporate power that we have right now is nonsense.

The free market is not a perfect system, because it is comprised of imperfect people. Heavy regulatory environments however, are much, much worse.

I'm not sure you even understand what 'free market' means. Do you understand what role free market advocates like Thomas Sowell believe the government should have in economic activity?
 
You talk like the situation we're in right now is the result of the 'free market,'
And this is the problem. You are putting words in my mouth based on your wild imagination.

I was literally explicitly replying to someone who thought it is ok for monopolies to lock down essential hardware with online DRM for a subscription fee with the notion that "the free market will fix it / stop it"

Explaining why no, the free market won't do that, is not "talking as if the situation right now is the result of the free market".
The USA has had steady federal and state encroachment on the economy for more than a hundred years now. It hasn't been a genuine 'free market' for a century, and has gotten further and further from that over the decades.

Funnily enough, entrenched corporations, difficulty entering markets, and general levels of corruption, have increased as the regulatory state has increased, not to mention causing things like the 2008 crash, crippling the growth of the energy industry, etc.
The USA was never a free market. The colonies had governments with rules even before the USA was founded.

What it had was small government with low but necessary regulations.
I will agree that govt encroachment almost always results in more corruption.
But that does not change the fact that it is utterly essential to have police/govt to combat crime/robber barons.

This might be of interest to you
The earliest surviving example of modern competition law's ancestors appears in the Lex Julia de Annona, enacted during the Roman Republic around 50 BC.[1] To protect the corn trade, heavy fines were imposed on anyone directly, deliberately and insidiously stopping supply ships.[2] Under Diocletian, in 301 AD an Edict on maximum prices established a death penalty for anyone violating a tariff system, for example by buying up, concealing or contriving the scarcity of everyday goods.[2] The most legislation came under the Constitution of Zeno of 483 AD which can be traced into Florentine Municipal laws of 1322 and 1325.[3] It provided for property confiscation and banishment for any trade combinations or joint action of monopolies private or granted by the Emperor. Zeno rescinded all previously granted exclusive rights.[4] Justinian I also introduced legislation not long after to pay officials to manage state monopolies. As Europe slipped into the Dark Ages, so did the records of law making until the Middle Ages brought greater expansion of trade in the time of lex mercatoria.
Shit behavior by merchants is not new
 
The free market is not a perfect system, because it is comprised of imperfect people. Heavy regulatory environments however, are much, much worse.

I'm not sure you even understand what 'free market' means. Do you understand what role free market advocates like Thomas Sowell believe the government should have in economic activity?
The free market is the delusional ranting of ancaps.
Also you are talking in platitudes about "more / less".
However strong != more, and also it is the specifics that matter.

You need very very strong anti monopoly laws.
This does not mean "regulate every single aspect of business". You equate "strong" with "byzantine beurocracy". But there is no such equating.

Zeno just abolished all state granted monopolies. bam, gone. That is "strong". It is also very simple. Just a single sentence.

Diocletian put a death penalty on any business conglomerate who create artificial scarcity of goods by buying it all up and then sell it back at artificially inflated prices.

Those are strong, they are not byzantine beurocracy where you have ministries who write a 5,000 page long law that nobody (certainly not the congressmen signing it) reads.
 
Anti-monopoly regulation is the only kind of regulation that I support, FYI.

Everything else should be handled simply as a matter of criminal/civil law regarding fraud, theft, violation of contract, etc. Modern utility infrastructure arguable merits different sets of rule, but there's so much tangled mess right now it's hard to say what it'd look like with all of that.

What regulation outside of anti-trust do you believe is necessary?
 
No, I'm pretty sure that standardizing the chair saves some money (certainly not enough to cover the entire cost, but definitely some), and the rest is made up in the subscription service. There's also the chance that they were going to offer it on every car anyway, in which case this is more of a cheaper option for people who don't want heated seats while charging people who do slightly more.
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Standardizing your seats will only work to a certain extent, because components and labor still cost money. You still need to purchase components, and you still need to pay people to install them on every unit whereas before, you had less. So either they have to really punish the people who want to use them by charging more for the subscription service, or they have to spread that cost around to help pay for it. Now, they could do the former, but most likely they will do the latter. Ergo no one is actually saving any money here.

The consumer doesn't get hit by sticker shock, and the company gets a consistent stream of revenue. It's done with tons of stuff where it makes more sense (spotify, software licensing in general, streaming services, etc) and so people look at that, see it's profitable, and want to try it out on other stuff to see if it's profitable there too.

There's no great conspiracy, just people wanting money.
This is not just some streaming service. This is an attempt to take the "sustainability" meme to the extreme, because modern cars are already designed to wear out and break more quickly than they need to. It's also being done with something that someone has already purchased and owns. If this was some kind of a lease only job, I wouldn't have as much to say, but this is literally charging someone even more money to be able to use something they already own.

Fair, and no, I'm not read up on how production lines work. I'm pretty sure not having to switch would save some money though. Obviously not a huge amount, but it would allow for easier/greater automation if they don't have to alter how part of the supply line works. Alternatively, maybe it's just not turning on a specific machine? In which case they are still effectively losing money by not making the higher value products when it costs a semi-similar amount.
Unless your factory was designed by an idiot, it is extremely easy to switch between batches. Your idea of how production works is apparently very flawed.

No, I'm not? No money's leaving my pocket, so I'm not getting your point here.
As I explained above, if you purchase one of these cars, you will have paid for everything that is in it, not only on general principal of purchasing the car, but in the sense that cost of these optional items that were installed anyway will have been spread out among all of them to make for a lower cost for their scummy subscription service, and to offset the risk of people not actually paying for said service. You yourself admitted that it was no argument that the base cost would increase.

As for right to repair, it is definitely important, but it exists largely because of government interference with the DMCA. If it wasn't for that, people would just reverse engineer stuff, and the free market could handle it. Right to Repair is a bandaid on top of a wound that's still being inflicted.
And this is yet another thing that the government is going to get involved in, because I guarantee someone is going to figure out how to bypass whatever BMW is using to keep these things from working or hack it in some way, and BMW is going to go running to the government. And again, these are for cars that have already been purchased and no longer belong to the manufacturer. Ergo property rights will suffer because of this.

We aren't in a oligopoly with cars.


Are you fuckin' for real? We have been for decades! And just like with phones and such, once one company does it and is successful (*cough*Apple*cough*), the rest will follow suit. Then where's your free-fuckin' market? And as for used cars, have you seen what a lack of computer chips has done to that market? All that'll happen is it'll artificially inflate prices on used cars, provided, of course, the government doesn't come along and do something stupid/malevolent by doing yet another "cash for clunkers" program, or just making vehicles made before a certain year illegal because "the environment" or whatever.

... No, it isn't a scam or fraud, and certainly doesn't merit government action. Seriously, where are they lying? You either don't know what you are talking about, or are just conflating definitions of things to arrive at the point you want. Again, a company is offering a service at a price point. They aren't lying about the service, the pricepoint, or colluding. That's not fraud. What you describe? Not fraud.
They are charging even more money for people to use something they ALREADY own!
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You're a libertarian and your cool with that? 🤨
 
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Anti-monopoly regulation is the only kind of regulation that I support, FYI.
The Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 is a beautiful piece of legislation which could, in the hands of the right laywer, make BMW seriously regret making the use of heated seats they provided with the car a subscribtion service. All it might theoretically take is one case of frostbite.

EDIT: BMW and Mercedes want you to pay extra for things which most other manufacturers provide as "standard features".
 
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First, as an update to everybody, the free market worked. They aren't offering subscription services in the US because people got pissed when they tried it last.

Standardizing your seats will only work to a certain extent, because components and labor still cost money. You still need to purchase components, and you still need to pay people to install them on every unit whereas before, you had less. So either they have to really punish the people who want to use them by charging more for the subscription service, or they have to spread that cost around to help pay for it. Now, they could do the former, but most likely they will do the latter. Ergo no one is actually saving any money here.
Someone is. Quite frankly, if they just jacked the prices for both subscribers and non subscribers, BMW is going to lose money. And I generally believe they simply aren't that dumb. BMW saved a little in standardization, lost more in extra costs, and thinks they are going to make more from selling this service.

Are you fuckin' for real? We have been for decades! And just like with phones and such, once one company does it and is successful (*cough*Apple*cough*), the rest will follow suit. Then where's your free-fuckin' market? And as for used cars, have you seen what a lack of computer chips has done to that market? All that'll happen is it'll artificially inflate prices on used cars, provided, of course, the government doesn't come along and do something stupid/malevolent by doing yet another "cash for clunkers" program, or just making vehicles made before a certain year illegal because "the environment" or whatever.
... Most producers doing similar stuff to one another is pretty standard practice in a free market? People look and see what has worked, and copy it. That's standard in a free market. Meanwhile, there are also innovators going around trying other things (like Tesla). No, the real place the free market is hit with cars is on distribution/dealerships, in that the companies are banned from selling direct to consumer in some states.

The computer chips spiking the price of new cars, which spikes the price of used cars, is exactly what we'd expect in a free market? That's free market econ 101: substitute goods.

They are charging even more money for people to use something they ALREADY own!
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You're a libertarian and your cool with that? 🤨
It's called property rights? Like you know property rights are more complicated than just selling a thing, then you are done. You can sell someone something that requires a subscription as well, as long as you are up front with it. You can sell someone land with respect to living on it, but not the mineral rights. There's a lot of different ways to sell stuff. That's entirely consistent with Libertarianism. In fact, complicated ways of selling stuff is a feature, not a bug.

The key thing is that they don't already own it. They aren't turning off heated seats for already sold BMWs from years ago (which would violate property rights). They are buying a BMW which they know comes with subscription heated seats. That's what they are selling, that's what you are buying. Entirely straight forward property rights.
 
The key thing is that they don't already own it. They aren't turning off heated seats for already sold BMWs from years ago (which would violate property rights). They are buying a BMW which they know comes with subscription heated seats. That's what they are selling, that's what you are buying. Entirely straight forward property rights.
So just to be clear, if someone creates alternative software to run the hardware then that's fine? Because you just said that you don't own the software for heated seats just the hardware. Ergo, you can do whatever you like to or with the hardware.
 
So just to be clear, if someone creates alternative software to run the hardware then that's fine? Because you just said that you don't own the software for heated seats just the hardware. Ergo, you can do whatever you like to or with the hardware.
I'd have no problem with it. But the DMCA would (which I think is anti-free market here, and another example of government interference. Pointed that out before in the thread). Given that you can also just manually install heated seats, I think that the DMCA here is especially bad. I'd also be fine with a manual workaround for the seat heaters as well. Or installing you own seat heaters. Or a number of other work arounds.

Of course not! Haven't you been listening?! According to him, we will be happy about not owning anything and only renting things.
Clearly, you haven't been listening, lol.
 
I'd have no problem with it. But the DMCA would (which I think is anti-free market here, and another example of government interference. Pointed that out before in the thread). Given that you can also just manually install heated seats, I think that the DMCA here is especially bad. I'd also be fine with a manual workaround for the seat heaters as well. Or installing you own seat heaters. Or a number of other work arounds.


Clearly, you haven't been listening, lol.
The DMCA says nothing about replacing the software for hardware. If it did projects like Coreboot or Libreboot and companies like System76 or Purism would not exist. Try again.
 
The DMCA says nothing about replacing the software for hardware. If it did projects like Coreboot and companies like System76 or Purism would not exist. Try again.
Look, if it doesn't apply, I'd be very happy. My guess is that producing the software to jailbreak your system would, somehow.
 
He's pretty much the perfect example of why I equate Libertarians with Communists; in the sense that they often come across as just as delusional and willfully ignorant in regards to how the world actually works.
Given that the free market handled this problem, yeah, I don't think so. Shocker, customers not buying bad products solves problems.
 
Given that the free market handled this problem, yeah, I don't think so. Shocker, customers not buying bad products solves problems.
Here's the thing: a BMW automobile is not a bad product. It's something a lot of people would be more than happy to see parked in their driveway.
 

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