Exploitative Gaming Practices

Sophrosyne

Member
Yeah, to let you spend money to get coins for skins that zero impact on gameplay. That's not a big deal.

That's not the point. You said YouTube Lets Plays and product reviews are enough for gamer to filter out microtransaction pay-to-play games... that's not the case if companies break their promise and retroactively alter the content of a game less than a month (or days/hours) later after you've purchased it, thus render all previous reviews and rating guidelines worthless.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
That's not the point. You said YouTube Lets Plays and product reviews are enough for gamer to filter out microtransaction pay-to-play games... that's not the case if companies break their promise and retroactively alter the content of a game less than a month (or days/hours) later after you've purchased it, thus render all previous reviews and rating guidelines worthless.
Well not worthless, unless you are so anti-microtransaction you lose your shit over cosmetics you pay for. Your enjoyment of the game changes zero from that.
 

Sophrosyne

Member
Well not worthless, unless you are so anti-microtransaction you lose your shit over cosmetics you pay for. Your enjoyment of the game changes zero from that.

You're still missing my point; I don't care about cosmetic microtransactions per se. You stated its the fault of gamers for failing for deceptive practices and failing to filter out bad games by reading reviews or watching a Let's Play but that's not the case.

How are they enough for customers to make an informed choice and filter out those games when companies are permitted to deceive them and retroactively alter the games post release/purchase so that such such reviews and videos are inaccurate in description? Even the ESRB label for the game is deceptive since Crash Nitro Kart now includes in game purchases but is sold as if it doesn't since the ESRB rating only applies to the initial release.

You can't claim gamers can effectively filter crappy pay-to-win games out and reward good games that don't when gamers praised and purchased Crash Nitro Kart precisely because it didn't have microtransactions... only for Activision pulled a con on them and put them in the game anyway! Reading reviews and watching videos didn't stop consumers from falling for a deception that cost them money.
 

Marduk

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Considering the topic, i'll throw in a video that's often brought up in it elsewhere, and is an example of what the thinking on the issue is on the industry side of it:


Well not worthless, unless you are so anti-microtransaction you lose your shit over cosmetics you pay for. Your enjoyment of the game changes zero from that.
Here's one thing you are missing. The abundance and aggressivness of MtX in the areas of industry interested in that is going to be balanced only by the customer base's tolerance and patience for this (unless we introduce new laws to do that, and that is a controversial idea that you don't seem sympathetic to). As such, just as pushing more MtX is within r ational interest of the publishers (=more income for them), it is equally rational for gamers to spread rage, resentment and hatred for MtX, particularly the more aggressive kinds (=publishers more scared of losing customers, =less MtX pushing in games). Ultimately, these two forces are balancing each other, wherever the balance is going to end up. Why would gamers not push for their own interest, which is to make the threat of MtX backlash look as severe and likely as possible?
After all, if you are fine with the industry playing psychological games on its customers, no reason to complain about the other side returning the favor...
One person being angry on the internet is ultimately meaningless, but if millions of people get angry on the internet about the same thing, in some scenarios the right people will notice and and react in a certain, perhaps desireable to the angry ones' way, this is one of such scenarios.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
This, however, I totally agree with. I'd prefer the convenience of steam and it's previous one stop shop status, but there's nothing wrong with the Epic Store.
I don't. There's just too many similarities between the growing exclusivity practices of online platforms, and the old practice of movie studios owning their own theaters, and holding exclusivity rights on which theaters would show their films. I would not be surprised if we eventually see a modern day equivalent of the Hollywood Antitrust Case of 1948.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
I don't. There's just too many similarities between the growing exclusivity practices of online platforms, and the old practice of movie studios owning their own theaters, and holding exclusivity rights on which theaters would show their films. I would not be surprised if we eventually see a modern day equivalent of the Hollywood Antitrust Case of 1948.

Ok, but how does having two online storefronts hurt consumers?
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
It doesn't; each of those two storefronts having their own exclusive content that you cannot get anywhere else though does. It's the exclusivity deals that are the problem, not the Epic Games Store in and of itself.

For consoles, maybe, because consoles have a high initial cost that you have to pay. Steam and Epic are free.

Let's swing this around a bit, is it a problem that walmart and target both have various store exclusive brands?
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
For consoles, maybe, because consoles have a high initial cost that you have to pay. Steam and Epic are free.
Consoles are different; because hardware differences mean that a game has to be designed for each console, whereas since Steam and Epic are both on the computer, any exclusivity is completely arbitrary.

Let's swing this around a bit, is it a problem that walmart and target both have various store exclusive brands?
No; because exclusive brands are not equivalent to exclusive products. Let's say Walmart has it's own exclusive brand of shampoo; you can still get other shampoos elsewhere that serve the same function. Entertainment products are different though. Most people just want their hair clean, and don't care what the product is as long as it accomplishes that end; but nobody wants to just play a game, and don't care what that game is.

A more accurate equivalence to a particular game becoming exclusive to a platform like the Epic Games Store, would be if Walmart suddenly announced that nobody else was allowed to sell shampoo but them. Not an exclusive brand, but rather an exclusive product. It's an anti-competitive practice, if ever there was one.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Consoles are different; because hardware differences mean that a game has to be designed for each console, whereas since Steam and Epic are both on the computer, any exclusivity is completely arbitrary.

That's wrong. The only reason Halo is xbox only and Killzone is Playstation only is because their respective owners won't allow them on the other platform, they could easily be ported and run on the other's hardware if they were allowed to. You know, the way a million other games are. Games by companies with far fewer resources than the ones behind most exclusive titles, at that. That's just as arbitrary as epic vs steam.

More to the point, I'm still not seeing why this is an issue. You can have both epic and steam on your PC, for free, with no other complications or downsides. Why is it such a big deal that one has stuff the other doesn't, when the impact on the consumer is minor at best?

No; because exclusive brands are not equivalent to exclusive products. Let's say Walmart has it's own exclusive brand of shampoo; you can still get other shampoos elsewhere that serve the same function. Entertainment products are different though. Most people just want their hair clean, and don't care what the product is as long as it accomplishes that end; but nobody wants to just play a game, and don't care what that game is.

I don't buy this idea that a specific kind of soap is totally interchangeable with any other soap, but a particular brand of FPS or RPG or something is not. I'd bet most people couldn't tell the differance between COD and Medal of Honor if you put a gun to their head, as the easy example.

Also, people totally have brand loyalty toward specific version of nearly identical products, the entire point of such brands trying to differentiate themselves is to build that kind of brand loyalty.

A more accurate equivalence to a particular game becoming exclusive to a platform like the Epic Games Store, would be if Walmart suddenly announced that nobody else was allowed to sell shampoo but them. Not an exclusive brand, but rather an exclusive product. It's an anti-competitive practice, if ever there was one.

That's nonsense on so many levels. Neither walmart nor epic have the power to declare any such thing, nor have they done so or done anything even close to it.

And I'm not sure how Epic trying to build a stable of games to compete with steam is anti-competative when compared to the prior situation of steam having no competition at all.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
One person being angry on the internet is ultimately meaningless, but if millions of people get angry on the internet about the same thing, in some scenarios the right people will notice and and react in a certain, perhaps desireable to the angry ones' way, this is one of such scenarios.
Except that said outrage leads to bureaucrats actually banning it and that's retarded. I want them as far away from game development as possible.

Most people just want their hair clean, and don't care what the
You have not been around women enough. Just try and hand them a shampoo they don't like or use normally, they tend not to be too happy.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
That's wrong. The only reason Halo is xbox only and Killzone is Playstation only is because their respective owners won't allow them on the other platform, they could easily be ported and run on the other's hardware if they were allowed to. You know, the way a million other games are. Games by companies with far fewer resources than the ones behind most exclusive titles, at that. That's just as arbitrary as epic vs steam.
It still requires more effort on their part to port it, than it would to not do so. Whereas on the computer, it actually takes effort to make something exclusive to a particular video game digital distribution service platform.

More to the point, I'm still not seeing why this is an issue. You can have both epic and steam on your PC, for free, with no other complications or downsides. Why is it such a big deal that one has stuff the other doesn't, when the impact on the consumer is minor at best?
Actually both Steam and Epic do have downsides; it's called DRM. This is why I only ever buy games on GOG, because I refuse to ever buy a game that has DRM. There's also the user-friendliness and features of the service to consider, and by those metrics, Steam beats out Epic by a landslide.

I don't buy this idea that a specific kind of soap is totally interchangeable with any other soap, but a particular brand of FPS or RPG or something is not. I'd bet most people couldn't tell the differance between COD and Medal of Honor if you put a gun to their head, as the easy example.

Also, people totally have brand loyalty toward specific version of nearly identical products, the entire point of such brands trying to differentiate themselves is to build that kind of brand loyalty.
Brand loyalty is a marketing gimmick; it has nothing to do with the product itself. As for soap not being totally interchangeable, sometimes that's the case, but there is nothing actually stopping some company from making soap that is completely identical to one someone else makes; they just cannot slap the same label on it, and that's what generic brands do ultimately.

That's nonsense on so many levels. Neither walmart nor epic have the power to declare any such thing, nor have they done so or done anything even close to it.

And I'm not sure how Epic trying to build a stable of games to compete with steam is anti-competative when compared to the prior situation of steam having no competition at all.
First of all, Steam does have competition; many of its games can also be found on GOG, for example. Secondly, it's anti-competitive because in making those exclusive deals, they are directly attacking Steam's ability to compete. Look at The Outer Worlds for example; if you want to play that game on your computer, you have to buy it from either the Epic Games Store, or the Microsoft Store. This means that the actually quality of those platforms are irrelevant; they don't have to compete with Steam or GOG, they just have to make sure that you can only get the games you want from them.

Look, if you're interested in watching a primer on where I'm coming from with online distribution services, these two videos should help:



The latter one is rather long, but it's important because it really digs into the criticisms levied against the ideas presented in the first video, and expands upon them enormously.



Except that said outrage leads to bureaucrats actually banning it and that's retarded. I want them as far away from game development as possible.
Not everyone is as anti-regulation as you are. Laissez-faire capitalism leads to exploited consumers, and I cannot support that.

You have not been around women enough. Just try and hand them a shampoo they don't like or use normally, they tend not to be too happy.
None of the dozen or so women in my immediate and extended family I know are like that. They all buy the cheapest thing that works.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Not everyone is as anti-regulation as you are. Laissez-faire capitalism leads to exploited consumers, and I cannot support that.
I haven't seen good evidence of exploitation here. I think the real issue is people valuing pixels and colors on a screen too much and that's a personal failing on their own behalf.


None of the dozen or so women in my immediate and extended family I know are like that. They all buy the cheapest thing that works.
Every woman I have been intimately familiar with has been like that. People do get real particular about things like this, and a single FPS game is in no way shape or form comparable to something like shampoo. Shampoo edges on a necessity. A video game is an absolute luxury and one game being sold exculsively is not close to a massive product type sold exclusively.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
I haven't seen good evidence of exploitation here. I think the real issue is people valuing pixels and colors on a screen too much and that's a personal failing on their own behalf.
At this point, I don't know what would count as evidence of exploitation, by your ludicrous standards.
 

prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
Every woman I have been intimately familiar with has been like that.
The general trend is part of the explanation for the 'pink tax'.
Whether it's the whole explanation could be argued over a bit more.

Which, to use as something of an analog for games and keep this more on-topic, might be indicative of a similar issue? Laypeople who aren't looking at ingredient-lists and searching out reviews or paying particular mind to how well certain shampoos or conditioners work for them gravitate to the big-marketed, mass-produced stuff because it's prominent, and there's an assumption of a degree of quality, and those laypeople might well pay a premium on such based on it where such is actually unjustified by the products value (big-name shampoo might have something detrimental in it or what-have-you). Similarly, laypeople who get gifts or are only casually interested in games don't search out much for reviews* and don't pay much attention to the potential inclusion of bloating, exploitative stuff like lootboxes or the like because they won't play them enough to be at all affected--companies can thus gravitate towards big-name, big-marketing that gets them that same style of 'buy the pink razor' market segment, and that's not a good thing for the industry or for folks more involved in it (the latter obviously because...see complaints here...the former because, as I loosely understand, such has produced outright collapses in the past because of the market bubble bursting, and that's an inefficiency a more laissez-faire perspective on this doesn't seem to account for enough).

Of course, whether one can trust a bumbling government regulatory body to not suffer from regulatory capture by the likes of EA and Blizzard and such is also a concern folks agitating for involvement/law should be aware of. Law or regulation on this stuff is not a guarantee of any kind of quality and could well also be detrimental as the right people are allowed to skirt by while indie developers or those who might be able to use these allegedly-objectionable things in a more acceptable way (dunnow if there's any commonly-accepted instances of this, but people with varied definitions of games that do [x] normally objectionable thing 'properly' seem to pop up in these discussions) are punished or restricted from using that angle to compete.

*and, as has been mentioned, reviews in gaming are somewhat under a heavy influence from the corporate industry because they can leverage access and reporting a lot easier/more effectively.
 
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FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Agreed.

Why do people protect these companies? They are woke and spit in our faces while doing everything they can to nickle and dime us. Fuck em.
Because I trust the government even less than them.

At this point, I don't know what would count as evidence of exploitation, by your ludicrous standards.
Why are the standards ludicrous? Generally, I just don't see wholly voluntary transactions with complete and absolute luxury vegetative entertainment goods as exploitative.
 

Marduk

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Except that said outrage leads to bureaucrats actually banning it and that's retarded. I want them as far away from game development as possible.
Only if aimed specifically to the bureaucrats. Maybye. We all know the bureaucrats would much rather regulate and tax it than ban it outright, and that in turn is more of a function of the sheer size of the money flow that may be taxed rather than how available excuses are, if they need some, you know they will find some.
If the industry is so worried about this war of psychological games is going so out of control that the bureaucrats will use it as an excuse to ban this practice outright, perhaps they should de-escalate it and self-moderate their side a bit. Which would also mean keeping the cash stream below the notice of tax revenue and power seeking bureaucrats.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Only if aimed specifically to the bureaucrats. Maybye. We all know the bureaucrats would much rather regulate and tax it than ban it outright.
If the industry is so worried about this war of psychological games is going so out of control that the bureaucrats will use it as an excuse to ban this practice outright, perhaps they should de-escalate it and self-moderate their side a bit.
They often can't. A dozen people dying because they bought shitty chinese liquid marijuana vape cartridges is enough to get clamoring to ban nicotine vapes in the US, and have banned and are banning in a number of municipalities states. I think microtransactions are nothing more than a good way to part dumb people from their money. It's a pure luxury good that the majority of the time does nothing but change the colors and patterns of guns and characters. The rest of the time it's on free to play games so its literally the only way they can make money for a free product. There's much less selling you a sixty dollar game and then adding microtransactions actually necessary in any way shape or form to really play or get content other than DLC which is perfectly fine. You have no entitlement to a pure luxury product or people's labor or to determine how they sell and structure a fucking game. Its the height of greed, sloth, and selfishness to think otherwise.
 

Marduk

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They often can't. A dozen people dying because they bought shitty chinese liquid marijuana vape cartridges is enough to get clamoring to ban nicotine vapes in the US, and have banned and are banning in a number of municipalities states.
Talk is talk, will they actually do it? I'd guess they will "gratiously compromise"on taxes and regulation. Meaning more money and power for them. Banning gives them neither. Just a bunch of votes from the people who wanted it. Maybye. In few years they will forget about it, and the bureaucrats will be stuck with a big, fat nothing.
I think microtransactions are nothing more than a good way to part dumb people from their money.
So are ponzi schemes, gambling, club priced alcohol (or alcohol in general if you push it), nicotine, and emails from nigerian princes. See the pattern there?
All either of questionable legality, or regulated and heavily taxed.
It's a pure luxury good that the majority of the time does nothing but change the colors and patterns of guns and characters.
Cosmetic ones, yes. But cosmetics are the proverbial camel's nose. Have you watched the video? Pure cosmetics aren't a dominating part of the MtX income for the big earners. There are 4 types of MtX, and the trick to getting rich on MtX is to offer most or all of them.
And hilariously enough, the most benign and justifiable form of MtX, extra content, is mentioned to be the least profitable because it takes actual effort and resources to create, so may well not necessarily bother with that one.
Once a game is developed with the payment system to do cosmetic, the temptation to do the other things will be strong, as most of the challenge is already in the past, the infrastructure to pay for in-game stuff being already there.
The rest of the time it's on free to play games so its literally the only way they can make money for a free product.
It's a wide statement, but as we see in few recent big news scandals, like Battlefront, that is slowly ceasing to be true. The corporate execs are still learning the things hinted at in the video i've linked.
Its the height of greed, sloth, and selfishness to think otherwise.
Yup. In a way. And that, in turn, means the MtX pushers have met their match. It's an awesome way to see it. It's a pitched battle of greed, laziness and selfishness of the sides involved.
 

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