Business & Finance Economic Fallout: Pandemic, Brandon, Money Printer Go Brr, Ukraine.

[Agent23]

That doesn't really work either. The amount of fuel consumed in peacetime is nothing to wartime so enough refined diesel to be usable to them in war wouldn't be consumed in a timely fashion in peace.

That's why the Strategic Reserves are, in fact, petroleum and not any refined fuels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_(United_States)

And yes, the military is dependent on supply chains and refineries. The US is in fact staggeringly good at it, most of the military power of the US rests on how amazing US Logistics are.

The consumption of the army is greater, yeah.
But the private economy is larger than the military, so IMHO this type of rotation might work.
As I said, I doubt any military can afford not to have emergency, usable fuel supplies on hand for an emergency, a few weeks to a month.
What happens if there is sabotage and someone targets pipelines and refineries, or if something like the 70s oil shock reoccurs.
Having just one reserve that is made up of unrefined oil is IMHO a bad idea.

 

[Agent23]

That doesn't really work either. The amount of fuel consumed in peacetime is nothing to wartime so enough refined diesel to be usable to them in war wouldn't be consumed in a timely fashion in peace.

That's why the Strategic Reserves are, in fact, petroleum and not any refined fuels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_(United_States)

And yes, the military is dependent on supply chains and refineries. The US is in fact staggeringly good at it, most of the military power of the US rests on how amazing US Logistics are.

The consumption of the army is greater, yeah.
But the private economy is larger than the military, so IMHO this type of rotation might work.
As I said, I doubt any military can afford not to have emergency, usable fuel supplies on hand for an emergency, a few weeks to a month.
What happens if there is sabotage and someone targets pipelines and refineries, or if something like the 70s oil shock reoccurs.
Having just one reserve that is made up of unrefined oil is IMHO a

 

[Bear Ribs]

The consumption of the army is greater, yeah.
But the private economy is larger than the military, so IMHO this type of rotation might work.
As I said, I doubt any military can afford not to have emergency, usable fuel supplies on hand for an emergency, a few weeks to a month.
What happens if there is sabotage and someone targets pipelines and refineries, or if something like the 70s oil shock reoccurs.
Having just one reserve that is made up of unrefined oil is IMHO a

Your doubts are incorrect, which is why you can't point to any strategic reserve of refined diesel. If there is, just link to it. Diesel can't be stored that way, as I've pointed out.

 

[Agent23]

Your doubts are incorrect, which is why you can't point to any strategic reserve of refined diesel. If there is, just link to it. Diesel can't be stored that way, as I've pointed out.

How do you make sure that the oil reserve can be turned into fuel on short notice in a crisis then?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

You seize the production capacity and force the refineries to push all their diesel to the military till capacity can be ramped up to meet both military and civilian needs if possible.

 

[Floridaman]

You seize the production capacity and force the refineries to push all their diesel to the military till capacity can be ramped up to meet both military and civilian needs if possible.

..... and since most of the diesel is used to transport things like food, and we are already facing shortages of that, what happens to the people?

 

[Cherico]

..... and since most of the diesel is used to transport things like food, and we are already facing shortages of that, what happens to the people?

They die

 

[Floridaman]

They die

Only question is would the people permit that, or would they finally say enough to the insanity.

 

[Bear Ribs]

How do you make sure that the oil reserve can be turned into fuel on short notice in a crisis then?

You maintain your refineries. You can't stockpile diesel anymore than you can stockpile electricity, your only option is to make sure the refineries and powerplants respectively are kept safe and go into overdrive on them in a pinch, while maintaining enough excess refining capacity to boost it when you have to.

If you look at our various war threads spitballing strategy against China, you'll notice there's a general theme going on:

Step 1: Wipe out their oil tankers going around the Indian Peninsula.
Step 2: You win.

This is because of how the nature of warfare and oil supplies work. You can't maintain a supply of refined diesel, you must rely on your refineries and a steady supply of crude to them to win a war.

 

[Floridaman]

You maintain your refineries. You can't stockpile diesel anymore than you can stockpile electricity, your only option is to make sure the refineries and powerplants respectively are kept safe and go into overdrive on them in a pinch, while maintaining enough excess refining capacity to boost it when you have to.

If you look at our various war threads spitballing strategy against China, you'll notice there's a general theme going on:

Step 1: Wipe out their oil tankers going around the Indian Peninsula.
Step 2: You win.

This is because of how the nature of warfare and oil supplies work. You can't maintain a supply of refined diesel, you must rely on your refineries and a steady supply of crude to them to win a war.

And for record the ones in the US are already working at the literal breaking point, so can’t make more. And we haven’t built a new one in decades.

 

[Marduk]

This is because of how the nature of warfare and oil supplies work. You can't maintain a supply of refined diesel, you must rely on your refineries and a steady supply of crude to them to win a war.

You maintain your refineries. You can't stockpile diesel anymore than you can stockpile electricity,

Stop making shit up after a rumor you have heard.

How Long Can You Store Diesel Fuel & How to Make it Last Longer

Stored at the right temperature with correct use of additives and regular maintenance, diesel can last for around 12 months before serious degradation.

www.wpowerproducts.com

DIESEL STABILIZERS: WHAT THEY ARE AND WHY THEY MATTER | Gem State Diesel & Turbo Repair

It’s no secret that diesel vehicles are making a comeback in America. Perhaps, it is because of their longevity, reliability, fuel economy, and surprisingly positive environmental aspects. Either way, many diesel forums have stated that now is the time to stock up on diesel fuel for the...

gemstatediesel.com

How To Store Diesel Fuel – Kendrick Oil

kendrickoil.com

The Key To Long-Term Diesel And Gas Storage

When fuel such as diesel or gasoline is readily available, most people don’t think of the ramifications of storing it. After all, if you need more, just go to the pump and get it! But in a survival situation, especially a prolonged one, fuel will be a prime consideration, mainly for two reasons...

www.offthegridnews.com

6-12 months in decentish conditions, beyond 5 years in proper storage conditions and with proper additives/treatment.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Stop making shit up after a rumor you have heard.

How Long Can You Store Diesel Fuel & How to Make it Last Longer

Stored at the right temperature with correct use of additives and regular maintenance, diesel can last for around 12 months before serious degradation.

www.wpowerproducts.com

DIESEL STABILIZERS: WHAT THEY ARE AND WHY THEY MATTER | Gem State Diesel & Turbo Repair

It’s no secret that diesel vehicles are making a comeback in America. Perhaps, it is because of their longevity, reliability, fuel economy, and surprisingly positive environmental aspects. Either way, many diesel forums have stated that now is the time to stock up on diesel fuel for the...

gemstatediesel.com

How To Store Diesel Fuel – Kendrick Oil

kendrickoil.com

The Key To Long-Term Diesel And Gas Storage

When fuel such as diesel or gasoline is readily available, most people don’t think of the ramifications of storing it. After all, if you need more, just go to the pump and get it! But in a survival situation, especially a prolonged one, fuel will be a prime consideration, mainly for two reasons...

www.offthegridnews.com

6-12 months in decentish conditions, beyond 5 years in proper storage conditions and with proper additives/treatment.

That's not actually possible. Refined diesel fuel doesn't store, it'll only last 6-12 months under ideal conditions. It's possible, with heavy additives and great care, to extend that to a couple of years but nothing like what would be needed to maintain an actual reserve, which by nature you're not going to be continually using.

Guidelines For Long Term Fuel Storage of Diesel and Storage Tanks

View these guidelines for long term fuel storage of diesel and ensure that quality is maintained and it is ready when you need it.

www.bellperformance.com

Try reading the actual thread, I literally opened up with those facts.

 

[Cherico]

And for record the ones in the US are already working at the literal breaking point, so can’t make more. And we haven’t built a new one in decades.

Good luck getting another built under Biden

 

[Floridaman]

Good luck getting another built under Biden

Even if he wanted to , which he doesn’t you cant snap your fingers and make one appear they take at least a few years.

 

[Marduk]

Try reading the actual thread, I literally opened up with those facts.

Very lowballed ones.

How Long Does Diesel Last In A Tank?

Wondering how long does diesel last in a tank? Get the answer in this post!

www.bellperformance.com

A big difference between then and now concerns diesel fuel’s storage life. How well it resists the kind of reactions and changes that all fuels go through over time in the real world. Back in the 1950s, the US Army reported that you could get 3-5 years (or more) out of stored diesel fuel. Now, without taking rigorous steps on fuel preventive maintenance, 3-5 years is out of the question.

When you have hundreds of thousands of tons of fuel to store, barrels of additives, and a chemical lab to regularly test quality, 5 years or more is definitely feasible.
Back when diesel was less processed it was apparently doable even with just good storage practices. Though then comes the question if the military orders some specific, more stable mix than commercial.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Very lowballed ones.

How Long Does Diesel Last In A Tank?

Wondering how long does diesel last in a tank? Get the answer in this post!

www.bellperformance.com

When you have hundreds of thousands of tons of fuel to store, barrels of additives, and a chemical lab to regularly test quality, 5 years or more is definitely feasible.
Back when diesel was less processed it was apparently doable even with just good storage practices. Though then comes the question if the military orders some specific, more stable mix than commercial.

Did you... actually read that article you just cited there?

The Answer?
So how long do today’s diesel fuels last in a storage tank? IF it’s a common on-road diesel (which will have 3-5% biodiesel content in it) and if it’s reasonably well taken care of (water removed monthly, fuel is monitored for microbes), you would expect to get 18-24 months out of it before you would expect to start seeing issues. Sometimes 12-18 months.

But that’s if everything goes well. Enough things don’t go well in everyday life that the recommended best practices for taking care of stored diesel always include incorporating diesel fuel stabilizers. And that’s in addition to good housekeeping and condition monitoring practices that you should be doing as a matter of regular business habit.

So how long does diesel fuel last in storage? 18-24 months. Unless it doesn’t.

Your own sources are literally saying flat-out that you're wrong. They do mention theoretically getting 3-5 years... for diesel made using a much less efficient process than we use today that produced a different, more stable form of diesel at the cost of only making half as much from a barrel of crude. You're acting like the maximum possible iss a baseline.

 

[Marduk]

Did you... actually read that article you just cited there?

The Answer?
So how long do today’s diesel fuels last in a storage tank? IF it’s a common on-road diesel (which will have 3-5% biodiesel content in it) and if it’s reasonably well taken care of (water removed monthly, fuel is monitored for microbes), you would expect to get 18-24 months out of it before you would expect to start seeing issues. Sometimes 12-18 months.

But that’s if everything goes well. Enough things don’t go well in everyday life that the recommended best practices for taking care of stored diesel always include incorporating diesel fuel stabilizers. And that’s in addition to good housekeeping and condition monitoring practices that you should be doing as a matter of regular business habit.

So how long does diesel fuel last in storage? 18-24 months. Unless it doesn’t.

Your own sources are literally saying flat-out that you're wrong. They do mention theoretically getting 3-5 years... for diesel made using a much less efficient process than we use today that produced a different, more stable form of diesel at the cost of only making half as much from a barrel of crude. You're acting like the maximum possible iss a baseline.

A big difference between then and now concerns diesel fuel’s storage life. How well it resists the kind of reactions and changes that all fuels go through over time in the real world. Back in the 1950s, the US Army reported that you could get 3-5 years (or more) out of stored diesel fuel.
Now, without taking rigorous steps on fuel preventive maintenance, 3-5 years is out of the question.

So it is possible, but it takes "rigorous steps on fuel preventive maintenance".
Stop spinning quotes like a maniac. What this means is that if you are a random farmer with a fuel tank behind the barn, or a dude with a couple barrels of diesel in his basement, that's not gonna work out. But if you are the DoD, and have a budget in millions to store few supertanker's worth of fuel, it is certainly doable. We are not talking about what is the baseline for "dude put fuel in a barrel", we are talking about what is possible for specialised mass storage system that the war reserve stock would be expected to use.

 

[Agent23]

There is a world of difference between conditions in a tank and possible conditions in long term storage where it could be kept at a different temperature and mechanically stimulated so as to prevent sedimentation/deemulsification.Maybe it gets oxidized.
Since none of us are petroleum chemists I am sure that most of us are talking out of our asses, oil can persist for a long time in the ground but once extracted IIRC it does have a shelf life.
From what I recall the US petroleum reserve is pumped into some underground caverns that can probably maintain a temperature/pressure.Maybe the type of rock it is pumped into prevents it from undergoing some physical or chemical processes that "spoil" it as opposed to keeping it in a metal tank.
I kinda miss CrossoverManiac in such discussions, since he was in the oil industry.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I'm not the one spinning quotes, you're making an absurd extrapolation by taking that sentence out of context, presuming an exact wording pedantic interpretation that contradicts their multi-paragraph conclusion where they boil it down, and claiming that the extreme outlier of that extreme interpretation is the norm. And I'm not sure about that outlier in the first place, all your other sources contradict it handily. Let's see what you posted.

How Long Can You Store Diesel Fuel & How to Make it Last Longer

Stored at the right temperature with correct use of additives and regular maintenance, diesel can last for around 12 months before serious degradation.

www.wpowerproducts.com

How Long Does Diesel Fuel Last?
Studies have determined within 28 days of storage diesel fuel #2 begins to become contaminated and start to degrade. Diesel fuel can only be stored from 6 to 12 months on average — sometimes longer under the best conditions. Generally, to prolong the life of the quality of stored diesel fuel, it should be:
[snip]
NFPA 110 refers to diesel “Storage Life,” 1.5 to 2 years. The Standard recommends that, “Tanks should be sized so that the fuel is consumed within the storage life, or provision should be made to replace stale fuel with fresh fuel,” NFPA 110, A-5-9

[snip]
The presence of these three factors can shorten the lifespan of the diesel, and as such, you can expect the quality to degrade quickly after 6 months. Below, we discuss why these three factors are threats and provide tips on how to maintain the quality of the diesel and prevent the occurrence of these threats.

Diesel starts breaking down in only a month but can last 1-2 years.

DIESEL STABILIZERS: WHAT THEY ARE AND WHY THEY MATTER | Gem State Diesel & Turbo Repair

It’s no secret that diesel vehicles are making a comeback in America. Perhaps, it is because of their longevity, reliability, fuel economy, and surprisingly positive environmental aspects. Either way, many diesel forums have stated that now is the time to stock up on diesel fuel for the...

gemstatediesel.com

Furthermore, some brands will also help with fuel lubricity which reduces wear in your vehicle over time. Once treated, diesel fuel can go from lasting less than a year all the way up to 2 years or more with the right additives and care.

DIESEL STABILIZERS: WHAT THEY ARE AND WHY THEY MATTER | Gem State Diesel & Turbo Repair

It’s no secret that diesel vehicles are making a comeback in America. Perhaps, it is because of their longevity, reliability, fuel economy, and surprisingly positive environmental aspects. Either way, many diesel forums have stated that now is the time to stock up on diesel fuel for the...

gemstatediesel.com

How long can you store diesel fuel?
Diesel fuel can remain viable for 6 to 12 months in weather of 85 degrees. After that, the fuel will begin to react with the oxygen in the tank. This reaction can lead to diesel becoming gummy. If the diesel becomes gummy, it will clog fuel filters, which can cause engine troubles. The gummy fuel will not burn well and can create a layer of soot and carbon on the inside of the engine. One option is to use stability treatments designed to counteract against the oxidation.

Out of four sites you have one sentence that maybe could support your notion if you read it right, against page after page saying the opposite, including the multi-paragraph conclusion in the same article you're misinterpreting.

But hey, let's give you the same offer as Agent. Show me the massive barrel strategic reserve that has diesel in it instead of crude.

Edit: and getting back to the main topic, there may be some good economic news:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/food-inflation-fears-abate-cooking-054807444.html

Though it's Bloomberg so not my highest and most trusted source. Anybody else have anything about this drop in food staple prices?

 

[LordSunhawk]

Note that the US military doesn't use diesel fuel, they use JP-8 for everything, IE jet fuel.