raharris1973
Well-known member
…were primarily driven by internal discontents in the affected countries, or primarily by the Bush-Cheney administration, using NGOs as their cats’ paws?
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Do you believe the ‘Color Revolutions’ in the former Soviet space in 2005…
- Thread starter raharris1973
- Start date
By internal developments, of course. The Russian belief that the West is responsible for triggering anti-Russian sentiments in the ex-USSR after 1991 is similar to the Nazi German belief that the Jews are responsible for triggering anti-German sentiments in the West in the 1930s and 1940s.
raharris1973
Well-known member
What about Euromaidan in Ukraine in 2014?
Primarily driven by Ukrainians themselves, though apparently Western NGOs might have taught Ukrainians how to organize protests more effectively or something like that:
FWIW, I consider the attitude and tone in the article above excessive, but this specific speech is a good example of how the US taught Ukrainians about how to organize protests better. But of course I don't actually see anything wrong with what the US did here.
@raharris1973 This post-Maidan polling (post-Crimean annexation) of Ukraine might interest you:
Even back then, Ukrainians weren't particularly eager for Russia to militarily get involved in their country, with the partial exception of ethnic Russians themselves, who were roughly evenly split on this issue/question.
Even back then, Ukrainians weren't particularly eager for Russia to militarily get involved in their country, with the partial exception of ethnic Russians themselves, who were roughly evenly split on this issue/question.
History Learner
Well-known member
Completely and utterly Western plots, self admitted in most cases. Here's the Guardian talking about the Orange Revolution in 2004:
But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.
Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.
Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.
Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.
That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.
But experience gained in Serbia, Georgia and Belarus has been invaluable in plotting to beat the regime of Leonid Kuchma in Kiev.
This extends as well to the Maidan, which was U.S. funded and backed:
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Vatnik
It was basically a case of State Department amplifying the existing tension within the countries, directing and funding the willing actors to install subservient regimes.
Buba
A total creep
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
NGOs.
We have seen how easily internal dissent that has no foreign or elite backing can be put down. NGOs are a tool of destabilisation used by the elites of the former west. Thats why any right winger worth his salt would want to destroy and sieze the assets of these vast foundations and endowments. They arent philanthropies..they are a way for american oligarchs to launder their money and political power.
Sobek
Disgusting Scalie
Western plots, but not fully.
Though you can force a revolution, that takes resources and time. The State Department isn't just "evil for evil sake's" and many there unironically believe they are good guys. The revolutions had real causes and real natural drive to them, but were prime for hijacking.
In some it was just a tiny push to be more western friendly, in others the manipulations were more explicit like the Euromaiden.
Though you can force a revolution, that takes resources and time. The State Department isn't just "evil for evil sake's" and many there unironically believe they are good guys. The revolutions had real causes and real natural drive to them, but were prime for hijacking.
In some it was just a tiny push to be more western friendly, in others the manipulations were more explicit like the Euromaiden.
Buba
A total creep
As did the Bolsheviks, Nazis, ISIS, Khmer Rouge, Taliban ...
You realise this is aligning you with various extreme Islamic groups in places like the Sahel, Afganistan and the like who block vaccinations against diseases, including attacks on the medical staff doing such because they claim its some western plot to undermine the nations the extremes are involved in gutting by their stupidity and barbarism.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Vatnik
They have a point though, CIA used fake vaccination as cover in their operations, undermining people's trust in it. And in general 99,99% of all NGOs are either monetary scam or political/intelligence operation, so the few that actually try to do good work are an acceptable casualty in the fight against globalist menace.
Why not both?
The facts are that the status quo of "former soviet space" was generally crap, infamous for corrupt governments, shitty, outdated economies, and no perspective to change that, with Russian pushes for reconsolidation of the "former soviet space" into something more current and material in the background, of course with unlimited willingness to sacrifice the interests of former and future subjects in the name of that. All numbers in economics, quality of life rankings etc indicate that there were plenty of reasons for perfectly natural internal discontent, and as such, it was there.
Of course western actors, state and private, saw all of this. They saw a fairly weak but bold, hardball playing competitor for the great power pie make big mistakes in handling its "assets" that he was unwilling or unable to cover for.
It would be unprofessional of them to not take at least some of the opportunities.
The facts are that the status quo of "former soviet space" was generally crap, infamous for corrupt governments, shitty, outdated economies, and no perspective to change that, with Russian pushes for reconsolidation of the "former soviet space" into something more current and material in the background, of course with unlimited willingness to sacrifice the interests of former and future subjects in the name of that. All numbers in economics, quality of life rankings etc indicate that there were plenty of reasons for perfectly natural internal discontent, and as such, it was there.
Of course western actors, state and private, saw all of this. They saw a fairly weak but bold, hardball playing competitor for the great power pie make big mistakes in handling its "assets" that he was unwilling or unable to cover for.
It would be unprofessional of them to not take at least some of the opportunities.
Yes the CIA did disguise an intel operation that way, which lead to criticism but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Your got that ratio wrong way around as there is a hell of a lot of good work done by charities. Definitely not an acceptable cost for generally unproductive actions against terrorist groups.
Both, probably.
Is the former Eastern Bloc a corrupt, shitty place to live and do many would-be gasterbaiters in it think that the EU is a magical place where everyone lives in free palaces and unicorns shit gold coins?
Yes.
Oh, and NATO, btw, is often seen as just a way to cut spending and also get into the EU waiting room faster, btw.
Are there a number of people who have a bone to pick with the commies and see Russia as the primary reason for the shitty situation, with a number of them having lost property or having their relatives killed or locked up and black marked by the former commie regime?
Also yes,I am sort of one, and I even know a few more who are far more radical, several of which think that a certain Austrian hipster whom they refer to as Chichu, did nothing wrong and saved Yurup from the commies/Stalin.
Also yes.
Are there lots of corrupt, self-serving assholes in the US state department pushing their own agenda, or neoliberalism, or helping US politicians to pander to special interest groups in the MIC and various immigrant communities to buy votes and get kickbacks?
Yes.
Of the others are some buying the shining city upon a hill globalist liberal hegemony bullshit that lines their pockets?
Yes.
Frankly, if the USA didn't interfere and didn't try and aggressively export its hegemony things would not be anywhere as bad and eventually we'd fix our stuff.
The so called Atlnaticists and pro-EU idiots that try to get gibs from Brussels and Washington are just as corrupt as their literal ancestors who got gibs from Moscow.
Is the former Eastern Bloc a corrupt, shitty place to live and do many would-be gasterbaiters in it think that the EU is a magical place where everyone lives in free palaces and unicorns shit gold coins?
Yes.
Oh, and NATO, btw, is often seen as just a way to cut spending and also get into the EU waiting room faster, btw.
Are there a number of people who have a bone to pick with the commies and see Russia as the primary reason for the shitty situation, with a number of them having lost property or having their relatives killed or locked up and black marked by the former commie regime?
Also yes,I am sort of one, and I even know a few more who are far more radical, several of which think that a certain Austrian hipster whom they refer to as Chichu, did nothing wrong and saved Yurup from the commies/Stalin.
Also yes.
Are there lots of corrupt, self-serving assholes in the US state department pushing their own agenda, or neoliberalism, or helping US politicians to pander to special interest groups in the MIC and various immigrant communities to buy votes and get kickbacks?
Yes.
Of the others are some buying the shining city upon a hill globalist liberal hegemony bullshit that lines their pockets?
Yes.
Frankly, if the USA didn't interfere and didn't try and aggressively export its hegemony things would not be anywhere as bad and eventually we'd fix our stuff.
The so called Atlnaticists and pro-EU idiots that try to get gibs from Brussels and Washington are just as corrupt as their literal ancestors who got gibs from Moscow.
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As you say there are always idiots and fools, who tend to be drawn towards the more extreme political stances because the latter go for simplistic yes/no good/evil solutions as they also tend to be bloody lazy. As such they prefer to blindly hate rather than seek to understand what the problem is. Of course they tend to make matters worse as their incapable of actually facing up to problems, let alone resolving them.
Nearly a century back a lot of idiots looked at the horrors of Soviet Russia, decided it should be opposed [rightly] and that the best answer was a basically identical regime but with a right wing psycho in charge [wrongly].
At the same time other idiots were looking at the rise of fascist regimes, decided they should be opposed [rightly] and that the best answer was a basically identical regime but with a left wing psycho in charge [wrongly].
Unfortunately for those too lazy to learn history tends to repeat itself.
Oh, yeah, and there is one more factor no one is mentioning, that being economic recessions and other such malaise.
being shitholes, Eastern European countries tend to catch cancer when the west sneezes and starts finagling with interest rates and its economy falters.
So yeah, usually the mess hits us, too, IMHO. that disproportionately hits those in capital intensive enterprises, export-oriented enterprises, people who borrow in dollars or euro, people who have incomes in dollars or euro, read gasterbaiters and their dependents, younger and blue collar and lower white collar people who lack the cushion to deal with the mess.
being shitholes, Eastern European countries tend to catch cancer when the west sneezes and starts finagling with interest rates and its economy falters.
So yeah, usually the mess hits us, too, IMHO. that disproportionately hits those in capital intensive enterprises, export-oriented enterprises, people who borrow in dollars or euro, people who have incomes in dollars or euro, read gasterbaiters and their dependents, younger and blue collar and lower white collar people who lack the cushion to deal with the mess.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
Anything and everything bad that ever happened was a result of Lucifer and his prophets America and Industrialization. For over a thousand generations the empires of Europe and Asia lived in a golden age of Gold God and Glory, then modernity attached.
I think that's all of the reactionary right wing talking points right?
I think that's all of the reactionary right wing talking points right?
Excuse me, but are you trying to move from concern trolling to full blown regular trolling?