Confederate victory at Gettysburg

History Learner

Well-known member
Gettysburg looms large in the American mind as arguably the most famous battle in the nation's history. This importance is derived, in part, from the strategic implications of the battle; it is considered the Confederate high watermark, with their defeat here often considered the turning point of the war. Said defeat was, however, definitely not set in stone and very easily the battle could've went the other way with all that entails. The ramifications of such a reversal depend upon how the victory is achieved, as there are several turning points upon which the course of the battle rested. Some options include:
For the latter, Sickles was right in moving forward into the Peach Orchard, as his movement caught Longstreet's forces still in deployment, forcing them into a meeting battle that saw only Anderson's division make it past their planned jumping point. Even as costly as the fight was for Sickles, the alternative was alternative was allowing Longstreet to establish his artillery on the higher ground while the boggy terrain of his original position meant Sickles couldn't effectively respond. Even worse would be the fact that his Corps has only six brigades in a straight line while Longstreet would be sending 13 downhill at him.

Of the three, the first one is my favorite and probably of the most interest to you. For a summarization of it:
  1. Stuart does his job, keeps Lee abreast of the AotP's movements.
  2. Lee decides Gettysburg is the place to concentrate his army, and plans for all three corps to arrive by different routes (I Corps via Hagerstown, II Corps from Harrisburg, and III Corps via Chambersburg).
  3. Lee ensures the Union will seek battle by sending Ewell up to capture Harrisburg.
  4. Under flag of truce, messenger gets the garrison of the city to agree to capitulate (keeping their arms and colors) if the Confederates take the forts on the South bank of the river, under threat of bombardment. They do on ~22 June.
  5. Longstreet and Hill's corps set up defensive positions on the heights west of Gettysburg to shield Ewell's strike in the north.
  6. Lincoln vetoes the Pipe Creek Circular, orders Meade north to strike Lee's army while it's divided.
  7. Reynolds' wing bumps into Gettysburg July 1; he attacks with I and XI Corps, before retiring to the CH-LRT line.
  8. Under heavy pressure from Washington, and knowing Ewell's corps is somewhere to the north, Meade launches a full attack with II, III, V, and XII Corps on July 2. The attack is repulsed with heavy losses, after Ewell forces him to crochet his right flank, and Meade retires to the fishhook.
  9. On July 3, Lee launches an echelon attack, starting with Ewell's fresh corps on the Union right. Meade commits VI Corps on his right, leaving the CH-LRT line vulnerable. Hill forces XI and I corps off Cemetery Hill and North Cemetery Ridge, and Longstreet puts a bow on it by taking South Cemetery Ridge and Little Round Top, taking control of the Taneytown Road.
  10. With only one line of supply/retreat left, Meade has VI Corps cover the retreat down the Baltimore Pike July 4. Lots of artillery and baggage is left behind.
  11. Lee has two divisions under Longstreet pin VI Corps, while the other two corps commanders take the Hanover Pike and Taneytown Road to try to cut off the AotP.
  12. VI Corps is cut off when a confederate column secures Two Taverns on the Baltimore Pike. Hill's column gets over the Pipe Creek around Taneytown.
  13. July 5, torrential rainstorms. AotP leaves more equipment behind to get over Pipe Creek before it stages too high. Longstreet starts down the Baltimore pike in pursuit of Meade. Ewell's column gets over Pipe Creek around Manchester. Hill's column makes for Westminster, while Longstreet's force is facing them from the front. AotP either barely escapes, abandoning all its baggage, and leaving a rearguard bound for captivity, or surrenders outright if Hill gets there too fast.
  14. Lee leaves forts in the South Mountain gaps, his columns strip Maryland bare, and Harpers Ferry is forced to surrender.
End result of this is either European intervention in the Summer of 1863, or a peace of exhaustion with Lincoln thrown out of office in 1864. Both result in an independent Confederate States of America, further changing the destiny of not just the U.S. and North America, but the world at large.
 

Sixgun McGurk

Well-known member
I don't think Europe would do a thing. If the French and British meddled more than they did in real history, the enraged Union would very likely be a fervent arms supplier and supporter of British enemies from Afghans to Zulus, but far more ominously, provide politically lethal moral ammo for the British Labour Party. No doubt the presence of large standing CS-US cold war regular armies would also pin down a number of British divisions just holding on to Canada until some border incident turned it hot. The Prussians would be Washingtons new best pals.
 

Buba

A total creep
If the French and British meddled more than they did in real history, the enraged Union [...]
With all due respect your post is delusional.
1 - An intervention by either Britain or France curbstomps the Union. And not due to putting boots on the ground, but by ending blockade of CSA and blockading the US in turn. No exports, no money, no imports, purchases of weapons (most US rifles were made with British steel, BTW) and no gunpowder for the Union.
2 - any post-war move the US would make against Canada means a move by the CSA against the USA. And the UK can easily afford 2-3 Divisions in Canada.
3 - What Labour Party? What do you know of British politics and electoral laws?
4 - What moral ammo? Less than ten years previously the UK and France had gone to war on behalf of Turkish slavers.
5 - global crusade funding all anti-British movements? BWAHAHA! US growth was funded by imports of British capital and know-how. The US has much to lose from a pissed off Britain.
6 - without the CSA the USA is 1/3rd poorer and weaker. The CSA will buy British made goods and not Northern made (which it had to due to tariffs), thus slowing down historical US growth.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Public opinion in both France and Britain, for different reasons, was that both had missed an opportunity to roll back World Revolution and Liberalism and also hamstring the rise of a Continental United States that would inevitably challenge the World Island for hegemony.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
At the time of Gettysburg, the Roebuck Motion to recognize the Confederacy was before the British Parliament and Napoleon was mulling over a unilateral intervention on the part of the French. Either would be decisive, although if the British do go forward with it the French would unquestionably follow their lead

A confederate victory likely means Maximilian's Mexican Empire survives for starters. And if either Britain or France, or both support a Mormon insurgency in Deseret, manifest destiny and the continental block ambitions of the upstart colonial republic could be contained, preventing a future where a single liberal regime dominates trade on the routes linking the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Unlikely. France can't keep army there forever as it has ambitions in Africa and Asia, so once these forces are pulled, the Maximillian's empire starts crumbling.

Without Yankees stirring the pot supporting the insurgency, Maximilian has an easier time of things.

I've always anticipated the Confederates would step in as their patrons, probably annexing the Northern half and puppeting the rest if not outright annexing it all.

Likely with or without French disengagement, as the natural tendency of a Confederacy Victorious is to look south for a Golden Circle trade block with Brazil, Cuba, and Mexico.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
For starters their internal squabbles, the war was supposedly fought for states rights, the rights that Davies trampled with gusto during wartime and there are no indications he would relinquish his powers, so it would be interesting times.
Money wise Confederacy was heavily in debt, economy was in shambles and cotton was not the money maker it used to be (competition from British empire). Also, post war issues of central banking will be fun to resolve.
Army will have to be demobilized, whatever standing army will remain will have to be split between watching USA and fighting Indians, so Mexican adventures would have to be left to filibusters.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
For starters their internal squabbles, the war was supposedly fought for states rights, the rights that Davies trampled with gusto during wartime and there are no indications he would relinquish his powers, so it would be interesting times.
Money wise Confederacy was heavily in debt, economy was in shambles and cotton was not the money maker it used to be (competition from British empire). Also, post war issues of central banking will be fun to resolve.
Army will have to be demobilized, whatever standing army will remain will have to be split between watching USA and fighting Indians, so Mexican adventures would have to be left to filibusters.

None of those are debilitating issues. If the Confederacy is able to win a war against a Union that both outnumbers and outproduces them, then they self evidentially have enough social solidarity, gehmeinschaft, togetherness-feeling to make collective sacrifices to solve the problems of victory.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
For starters their internal squabbles, the war was supposedly fought for states rights, the rights that Davies trampled with gusto during wartime and there are no indications he would relinquish his powers, so it would be interesting times.
Money wise Confederacy was heavily in debt, economy was in shambles and cotton was not the money maker it used to be (competition from British empire). Also, post war issues of central banking will be fun to resolve.
Army will have to be demobilized, whatever standing army will remain will have to be split between watching USA and fighting Indians, so Mexican adventures would have to be left to filibusters.

The whole State's Rights issue is a Lost Causer invention rather than any real basis in the contemporary struggle itself. To quote from
Modernizing a Slave Economy: The Economic Vision of the Confederate Nation by John Majewski, Chapter ECONOMIC NATIONALISM AND THE GROWTH OF THE CONFEDERATE STATE

Confederate railroad policy, in fact, provides a microcosm for understanding how secessionists crossed the thin line separating antebellum state activism and a powerful, dynamic Confederate state. On the face of it, most Confederate leaders seemingly opposed national railroads. During the Confederate constitutional convention, South Carolina’s Robert Barnwell Rhett and other secessionists sought to prohibit the central government from funding internal improvements. The Confederacy, they argued, should never allow internal improvements (at least on the national level) to generate the evils of logrolling, budget deficits, and higher taxes. Rhett won an important victory when the Confederate constitution specifically prohibited Congress from appropriating ‘‘money for any internal improvement intended to facilitate commerce.’’ The constitution allowed the Confederate Congress to appropriate money to aid coastal navigation, improve harbors, or clear rivers, but only if it taxed the commerce that benefited from such improvements. ‘‘Internal improvements, by appropriations from the treasury of the Confederate States,’’ Rhett’s Charleston Mercury cheered, ‘‘is therefore rooted out of the system of Government the Constitution establishes.’’​
States’ rights ideology, though, eventually lost to a more expansive vision of the Confederate central state. As Table 6 shows, the Confederate government chartered and subsidized four important lines to improve the movement of troops and supplies. Loans and appropriations for these lines amounted to almost $3.5 million, a significant sum given that a severe shortage of iron and other supplies necessarily limited southern railroad building. Jefferson Davis, who strongly backed these national projects, argued that military necessity rather than commercial ambition motivated national investment in these lines. The constitutional prohibition of funding internal improvements ‘‘for commercial purposes’’ was thus irrelevant. That Davis took this position during the Civil War followed naturally from his position on national railroads in the antebellum era. Like Wigfall, he believed that military necessity justified national railroad investment. As a U.S. senator, Davis told his colleagues in 1859 that a Pacific railroad ‘‘is to be absolutely necessary in time of war, and hence within the Constitutional power of the General Government.’’ Davis was more right than he realized. When the Republican-controlled Congress heavily subsidized the nation’s first transcontinental railroad in 1862, military considerations constituted a key justification. Even after the Civil War, the military considered the transcontinental railroad as an essential tool for subjugating the Sioux and other Native Americans resisting western settlement.​
When the Confederate Congress endorsed Davis’s position on railroads, outraged supporters of states’ rights strongly objected. Their petition against national railroads—inserted into the official record of the Confederate Congress—argued that the railroads in question might well have military value, ‘‘but the same may be said of any other road within our limits, great or small.’’ The constitutional prohibition against national internal improvements, the petition recognized, was essentially worthless if the ‘‘military value’’ argument carried the day. Essentially giving the Confederate government a means of avoiding almost any constitutional restrictions, the ‘‘military value’’ doctrine threatened to become the Confederacy’s version of the ‘‘general welfare’’ clause that had done so much to justify the growth of government in the old Union. The elastic nature of ‘‘military value,’’ however, hardly bothered the vast majority of representatives in the Confederate Congress. The bills for the railroad lines passed overwhelmingly in 1862 and 1863. As political scientist Richard Franklin Bensel has argued, the constitutional limitations on the Confederate central government ‘‘turned out to be little more than cosmetic adornments.’’
Like Louis Wigfall’s rambling interview with William Howard Russell, the ‘‘cosmetic adornments’’ in the Confederate constitution allowed secessionists to articulate republican principles without actually having to follow them. If Confederate delegates in Montgomery really wanted to stop all national improvements, they could have simply prohibited the Confederate Congress from appropriating ‘‘money for any internal improvements’’ rather than insert the qualifying phrase ‘‘intended to facilitate commerce.’’ It is hard to believe that the inclusion of the ‘‘commerce’’ qualification was accidental. Having spent much of their careers debating the old federal Constitution, the delegates at Montgomery carefully considered the implications of every phrase they wrote.∞∂ The delegates surely knew that men such as Wigfall and Davis had used the national defense argument to justify federal spending on internal improvements. As it was, the delegates ritualistically invoked states’ rights without having to worry about the consequences. Historian Don E. Fehrenbacher has argued that the Confederate constitution was written ‘‘by men committed to the principle of states’ rights but addicted, in many instances, to the exercise of national power.’'Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Confederates were committed to the language of states’ rights in a way that rarely prevented the growth of national power.​
The decision to subsidize railroads, while ideologically important, was only a small part of the overall growth of the Confederate state. Other elements of Confederate state building, in fact, proved less controversial. When a shortage of pig iron threatened ordnance production, Davis told Congress in early 1862 that the ‘‘exigency is believed to be such as to require the aid of the Government.’ In April 1862 the Confederate Congress passed legislation that offered no-interest loans to iron masters who expanded their forges. The loans would only pay half the cost of the additional investment, but the Confederate government also covered to make advances up to one-third the value of contracts. To help forges secure additional raw materials, the Confederate Congress set up the Niter Bureau in 1862, which quickly became involved in exploration for new sources of iron. The Confederacy sometimes used private firms to produce ordnance—the famous Tredegar Iron Works is a good example— but the Confederacy’s Ordnance Bureau also built and operated its own arsenals, mills, and factories throughout the South. The arsenal at Selma, Alabama, for example, employed 3,000 civilians, while the Ordnance Bureau’s powder factory in Augusta, Georgia, was the second largest in the world. Whereas the North tended to rely on government contracts with private firms to meet the needs of wartime production, the Confederacy, with surprisingly little opposition, produced much of the military supplies consumed by its armies.​
The story of the Quartermaster Department is similar to the Ordnance Bureau. Historian Harold S. Wilson describes Confederate e√orts to outfit soldiers with uniforms, shoes, blankets, and tents as the ‘‘brink of military socialism.’’ The Quartermaster Department of the Confederacy operated its own factories and workshops, employing some 50,000 workers (many of them seamstresses). To obtain cloth for these factories and workshops, the Quartermaster Department exerted immense control over privately owned textile mills. Mills that refused to submit to Confederate controls on prices and profits faced the prospect of having their workers conscripted into the Confederate army. When wool supplies ran short—largely because Union forces captured most of the major woolproducing areas early in the war—the Confederate Congress authorized quartermasters to impress whatever supplies they could find. The Confederate Congress also allowed the Quartermaster Department (under the auspices of the Bureau of Foreign Supplies) to regulate and control most blockade runners. In early 1864 the Confederate government prohibited private shipments of cotton, tobacco, and other staple crops; required that private blockade runners devote half of all cargo space to the war department; and prohibited luxuries from entering the South. The Confederacy had essentially nationalized much of its foreign commerce.​
Also from Majewski, but this time the Chapter REDEFINING FREE TRADE TO MODERNIZE THE SOUTH:

The Confederacy, of course, never really had a chance to collect its tariff. If the seceding states had been allowed to leave without war, however, the Confederate tariff would have had a significant fiscal impact. According to economist Thomas F. Huertas, the South imported $200 million worth of northern goods in 1860 (see Table 5). With an independent Confederacy, northern goods would have been transformed into dutiable foreign trade. Under Confederate tariff schedules passed in May 1861, imported manufactured goods from the North and Europe would have yielded the Confederate treasury almost $34 million. The percentage of collected duties to the value of total imports would have been 14.3 percent, which was only slightly lower than the ratio of 16 percent for the entire United States in 1860. In per capita terms, every free person in the Confederacy would have paid $6.07 in duties. By way of comparison, the entire United States (both North and South) collected duties worth $53 million, or $1.94 per free resident in 1860. If the North had allowed the South to peaceably leave the Union, the Confederacy would still have increased the tax burden on its own citizens—an ironic result for a nation supposedly committed to free trade and limited government.​
The high rate of per capita taxation suggests the complex relationship between trade and Confederate nationalism. In some respects, the traditional southern commitment to free trade remained strong. In 1861, for example, South Carolinian G. N. Reynolds wrote in a letter to William Porcher Miles (a South Carolina delegate to the Confederate constitutional convention) that Switzerland was a model of free trade: ‘‘The result is that capital and industry flow solely in the most productive channels. So let it be with us.’’ Other secessionists thought in nationalistic terms and conceptualized trade not as a free-flowing river but as a weapon for punishing enemies. Referring to the North, Texas senator and former South Carolinian Louis Wigfall boasted, ‘‘Not one pound of cotton shall ever go from the South to their accursed cities; not one ounce of their steel or their manufactures shall ever cross our border.’’ A moderate revenue tariff that lowered duties on European goods while raising duties on northern goods synthesized these two potentially contradictory messages of free trade and Confederate nationalism. In the minds of many secessionists, free trade offered the Confederacy a means of escaping northern economic domination and solidifying international alliances. At the same time, secessionists could tout the ability of their government to penalize northern goods and protect southern manufacturers.​
In fusing free trade and protectionist impulses, secessionists spoke and wrote in a Hamiltonian idiom of economic modernization and economic nationalism. Just as Hamilton had imagined the United States becoming a world economic power, secessionists envisioned the Confederacy as a vehicle for promoting economic modernization. Confederate duties closely resembled (and sometimes exceeded) the 10 to 15 percent tariff rate proposed by Hamilton in his famous Report on Manufacturers (1791). The similarity in rates reflected shared goals of simultaneously promoting nation building and economic development. Hamilton wanted to make his new nation economically independent while simultaneously encouraging enough international trade to pay for his ambitious fiscal plans. His moderate tariff encouraged domestic manufacturing while generating enough revenue to finance the Revolutionary War debt. Confederates wanted tariffs high enough to penalize northern goods—thus encouraging economic independence—but still low enough to allow for a vibrant trade with Europe.

The idea that Cotton fortunes for the Confederacy had/would decline is also without merit:

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Rather than being displaced, they remained relatively steady in terms of percentages of British consumption. Cotton actually remained the main U.S. export until 1937 and the value of said export increased from $227 Million in 1870 to $1.136 Billion in 1920; that's a 5x increase in value despite the export percentage decreasing from 60% of the crop to just 14%. They were getting much more for less, given that exports in 1920 were only three times larger than that in 1870.

Finally, for the debt issue, all but the Erlanger loan of 1863 was denominated in Confederate Dollars; it would thus be extremely easy to fix and the Confederate export tax on cotton alone would allow for it to be paid off no later than 1870.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
It is important to be able to decode the language used in these rhetorical slogans. 'States Rights' wasn't about some sort of abstract conception of the autonomy of abstract generic states, but a specific defense of a particular group of related peoples under many political units, in alliance, offering a justification for their own resistance to another alliance of peoples in an alliance system.

Specifically, Southron resistance to the domination of Federal Economic policy, both 'private' and 'public', not that any such distinction is particularly meaningful in a merchant republic, by New York finance usury.
 

Buba

A total creep
The whole State's Rights issue is a Lost Causer invention [...]
Fantastic post!
Thank you for giving facts and figures to what I suspected, i.e. that the CSA Constitutional ban on "facilitate commerce" improvements being possibly circumvented with the (BTW IMO legit) defence concerns.
Interesting and totally new was the scale of the CSA's "war economy".
The value of cotton exports also highlights how much poorer and weaker a Southless USA (which in such threads always grows at historic rate, holds a death grudge, does an Anschluss of Canada and curbstomps the UK - inside a decade or two, WWI latest) would be as it:
a/ does not make money on those cotton/tobacco/peanuts/etc. exports and
b/ does not "export" its manufacturing produce to the South, which (for many reasons) buys European and/or makes its own. Nitpicking - the North exports less of it than in OTL.

I additionally suspect that the North's banking/financial sector would also take a hit, with the South setting up/expanding its own banks and/or importing British/French banks. Thus in yet another way slowing down the USA's economic expansion. Then again, capital has no nationality ...
 
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gral

Well-known member
Likely with or without French disengagement, as the natural tendency of a Confederacy Victorious is to look south for a Golden Circle trade block with Brazil, Cuba, and Mexico.

Brazil is already tied commercially to the Union; furthermore, those sectors of society that were responsible for secession were the ones interested in filibustering everyone else's territory to expand slavery. This means the CSA will at the very least be seen as a rival by the Empire of Brazil, and more likely as a (likely)future enemy.

Confederate-Brazil friendship is an AH cliché that annoys me; Brazil has all the reasons to be wary of the CSA, and none to get closer to them.
 

stevep

Well-known member
None of those are debilitating issues. If the Confederacy is able to win a war against a Union that both outnumbers and outproduces them, then they self evidentially have enough social solidarity, gehmeinschaft, togetherness-feeling to make collective sacrifices to solve the problems of victory.

Not necessarily. Exhausting the will to fight of a larger neighbour doesn't mean the country won't end up drained by the battle. Also having 'won' the war for independence there is a sizeable chance that the next stage is internal conflict - talking politically, economically and socially here rather than militarily as to which group(s) get the spoils.

Plus projecting power at some distance into a foreign territory that has no welcome for another set of invaders seeking to remove them from any real power and treat them as at best 3rd class citizens is a lot harder than fighting very near your centre of gravity. Ordinary whites will fight to defend their state against invasion and pay taxes for it, albeit probably with a lot of grumbling. Getting them to do so for a foreign adventure so that a small number of wealthy people can make more money is another matter. The sort of propaganda in the press reports in post #15 won't take you very far.

This of course assumes that no other party opposes the southern adventure.
 

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