Christianity and Cyronics, Thoughts?

[LindyAF]

So as a bit of background here, I was raised in a non-religious (actually, explicitly atheist) family. While attending college, I began attending church (first a non-denominational church, and then a Catholic Church). The most important fact for me was that I think that a tree can be judged by its' fruits, and the fruits of liberalism and irreligiosity in the far left city I went to school in seem to me to have been poison. I was baptized (to be in accordance with my grandparents wishes) but was not raised religious and have not (yet) become a catechumen or taken any steps towards converting (besides attendance), and do not receive communion at mass. I would like to be a Christian, but I'm not sure if I am one.

I was wondering what Christians think about the morality and implications on the soul of Cyronics. I'm not terribly concerned here with efficacy - I think that the chance of it working is pretty low, but that it is potentially worth the cost.

So the way I see it, assuming Christianity is true, if Cyronics works (where works means both that it's fundamentally feasible and practically possible in my specific case) then it would delay judgement upon death, which if I am saved at the time of my earthly death would prolong the time before I enter heaven, but generally life-saving and prolonging choices are considered good in Christian teaching, as St. Paul said "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." However, it could put my immortal soul in danger if I were to be resuscitated and then stray, but it could also safeguard it, if I would not be saved at the time of legal death but after resuscitation I returned to the fold. I am not sure how to judge the two as far, or if it is even the sort of thing that should be done.

If on the other hand, Cyronics does not work, then it could put my immortal soul in danger, if I am engaging in a sort of reverse Pascalian wager, which could be a mortal sin?

Interested in the thoughts anyone else might have on this. Also something I'll probably consult with a pastor about.

 

[Simonbob]

If on the other hand, Cyronics does not work, then it could put my immortal soul in danger, if I am engaging in a sort of reverse Pascalian wager, which could be a mortal sin?

Unless you're dealing with Disney, or other demons, for your cryonic suspention, you're just living a bit longer.

You're not altering yourself beyond humanity, you're not sacrificing others for your extended life. You're just having a long nap.


(Disclaimer, not a Christian, so, just guessing)

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

If Cryonics are able to work, that's cool. *shrug*

However, it could put my immortal soul in danger if I were to be resuscitated and then stray, but it could also safeguard it

I don't see why you would need to be put to sleep to save your soul. Would you have so little faith in God's promise to save you, that you would want to go to sleep with your last thoughts of being of your trust in God, second guessing yourself? Rather than enjoying what life you still had left and doing the thing God called you to do on earth?

IIRC there is a verse in the New Testament (either in the Gospels or in something Paul wrote, probably Romans) that says that once you turn to Christ, you will always be saved even if you fall away (which has been the source of debate. I'm not a theologian).

generally life-saving and prolonging choices are considered good in Christian teaching, as St. Paul said "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

As for life extension treatments in general, I doubt there would be a way to live much longer anyway. After Adam and Eve sinned, humanity became frail, susceptible to death, and their days numbered. And then after nearly all of humanity turned away from God (except for Noah and his family), God shortened humanity's lifespan. Also, human cells can only reproduce so many times.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Judgement will come for us all at the time of Christ's return (according to Christian faiths) no matter if we're alive or dead. So cryogenics will NOT prevent judgement from happening.

I'm leery of the idea simply b/c cryogenics may remove you from everything you know. All those people you loved and cared for may by long gone by the time you wake (if you every do). It's the same reason I don't want immortality.

As for sin, I could only see cryogenics as sinful if you were using it to further sinful actions. Freeze me for 200 years so my investments have time to mature to ridiculous levels...that's the wrong motivation I think. You might be placing money above God at that point.

 

[Bassoe]

Seems like being in a coma would be the best parallel. You're technically not dead yet and might recover, so your soul stays in your body and doesn't go to the afterlife yet, until you either die outright or the life-support machinery breaks down and kills you.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Well, cyronics flat out doesn't work, and the philosophical basis of cyronics is pretty opposed to Christianity, and the mere desire to be cryogenically preserved doesn't really make sense from a Christian worldview, so there's that. I'll speak more on that later.

I don't think being cryogenically frozen after death would prevent your soul from passing on, either. You're dead, and you've been dead for quite a while. You would probably go to Heaven or Hell (or Purgatory, depending on what you believe), and if you were successfully resurrected in a few centuries, your soul would return. Which would be either good or bad. It would be bad if you were plucked out of Heaven and came back to Earth - imagine coming back from a maximally good place, in an absolute sense, back to the real world. It would be good if you came back from Hell/Purgatory, but you'd have all the emotional damage of a person who spent a few centuries being tortured. If you went to Purgatory and then Heaven, you'd be annoyed with yourself because after dying a second time you'd have to go through Purgatory all over again.

From a philosophical basis, why would you want to put off going to a maximally good place (Heaven) to spend time on this earth? You have to ask yourself why you want to put it off. Is it because you don't think you'd go to Heaven (in which case, that's a much more serious issue, because there's no guarantee at all that being cryogenically frozen would work)? Or is it because you're afraid there isn't a Heaven, and you want to hedge your bets?

Also, that's not what that verse means. Paul is literally saying his desire is to die, because "to die is gain," and he goes on to say that dying is better than being alive. He goes on to say that the only reason he's still alive is because other Christians need his guidance. Its actually similar to a certain type of Buddhist perspective - IE, someone on the verge of achieving nirvana would pull back in order to guide others on their way to nirvana.

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

But I certainly wouldn't say that extending life indefinitely is a very Christian perspective. In my experience most older Christians who are educated, familiar with the Bible, and devout Christians eventually look forward to death - because why wouldn't you like forward to being in a maximally good place?

That's the point I keep coming back to - why do you want to put off being in Heaven?

Now, before anyone tries to point out the natural atheistic counterpoint - if Christians want to be in Heaven so much, why aren't they killing themselves - I'd like to point out that (1) suicide is considered wrong, if not necessarily sinful or damnably sinful, by almost all Christians, and (2) there is a very big difference between a young 20 something wanting to put off going to Heaven and an old 80 something wanting to put off going to Heaven, and I think that's pretty readily apparent.

 

[ATP]

Cryonic worked,true,but - for reptiles,frogs and maybe rats.I do not think that current technology let people survive that.
If nothing change,you would just kill yourself.

P.S I am catholic,and belive in my religion - but,with current pope,i advise joining Lefebrists.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Unless you're dealing with Disney, or other demons, for your cryonic suspention, you're just living a bit longer.

You're not altering yourself beyond humanity, you're not sacrificing others for your extended life. You're just having a long nap.


(Disclaimer, not a Christian, so, just guessing)

I think you're confusing sci-fi suspended animation with cryonics. In real cryonics, you are dead when they freeze you, and by "you", that might just be just your frozen severed head. Cyronics is explicitly premised on the idea that in the future, it will be possible to take that frozen body/head and bring it back to life after having been dead for who knows how long. It is not the sci fi thing where you put an injured person in suspended animation until they can be cured later, because that person was still alive when frozen.



As for the overall question, presuming it is possible, the question here seems to be based on the premise that when you die, your soul is just "on hold" for judgement until however many years later when you actually die. That's not correct, because it's imposing a linear view of time on God. God is not constrained by human notations of time.

 

[Bassoe]

the question here seems to be based on the premise that when you die, your soul is just "on hold" for judgement

Doesn't it depend on doctrine whether people's souls go straight to the afterlife their actions in life earned them after their death, or stay dormant until Judgment Day when everyone gets resurrected and judged at once?

 

[Battlegrinder]

Doesn't it depend on doctrine whether people's souls go straight to the afterlife their actions in life earned them after their death, or stay dormant until Judgment Day when everyone gets resurrected and judged at once?

Yes, there are varying interpretations, however I don't any of them are relevant in this case because this is about what happens in between your initial "death" and your final death. The assumption your soul must go somewhere in between those points seems to be based more in human views of time than theology. For example, Lazarus was raised from the dead days after he died and as far as the bible mentions, it was just as if he'd been sleeping for a time, rather than him being yanked from the afterlife (and the same is the case for the other few people that were brought back).

God knows when you'll be due for judgement, it's not going to happen before then (unless you're Calvinist).

 

[ParadiseLost]

(unless you're Calvinist).

New Calvinist Escape Room Has Participants Do Nothing While They Wait For Someone To Let Them Out

NASHVILLE, TN—Christian entertainment company 4HisGlory Amusements has announced an exciting new escape room experience based on Calvinist theology. Participants will be entirely unable to do anything to escape the room and instead must wait for an actor playing Jesus to unlock the door and let...

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Calvinists are weird.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I'm a non catholic who will fully admit that I'm struggling with my faith so take what I have to say for what it's worth.

Paul the apostle did not declare his race won until he knew for a fact that his death was eminent while he was strong in the faith and probably wavered less than any other man, he was willing to stay on earth however long God allowed. All this to say, just because we believe heaven is our home does not mean we rush to death, just that we don't weep like we have no hope when death does come.

thing about cryonics is that it's as Battlegear says it's less resuscitation and more "We store your brain in a freezer and hope we can bring you back to life later." thing is even with what limited knowledge we have, we're learning pretty quickly that there are some pretty hard unmoving timeframes as the body starts to die. I believe it only takes a few minutes for brain damage can start to occur and as someone with a family member who is a nurse, some of the life support system stories I've heard are nauseating and heartbreaking. We're talking human vegetable and sometimes worse. Unless they can find a way to somehow PERFECTLY preserve the brain and transfer it immediately into a working body, I can't imagine the results being very pretty. if they did somehow technobable thier way around that, it'd just be another resuscitation measure.

but practicality speaking aside, who'd want to live until the end times? Even if you know your place is in heaven regardless you're basically going to be forced to watch humanity make the same stupid mistakes over and over and over again. Heck i'm not even 30, statistically speaking i'm still young dumb and have most of my life ahead of me and there are some days I emotionally feel like a 50 year old man that looks back at his "Glory days" and wants off this crazy ride.

 

[Cherico]

I'm a non catholic who will fully admit that I'm struggling with my faith so take what I have to say for what it's worth.

Paul the apostle did not declare his race won until he knew for a fact that his death was eminent while he was strong in the faith and probably wavered less than any other man, he was willing to stay on earth however long God allowed. All this to say, just because we believe heaven is our home does not mean we rush to death, just that we don't weep like we have no hope when death does come.

thing about cryonics is that it's as Battlegear says it's less resuscitation and more "We store your brain in a freezer and hope we can bring you back to life later." thing is even with what limited knowledge we have, we're learning pretty quickly that there are some pretty hard unmoving timeframes as the body starts to die. I believe it only takes a few minutes for brain damage can start to occur and as someone with a family member who is a nurse, some of the life support system stories I've heard are nauseating and heartbreaking. We're talking human vegetable and sometimes worse. Unless they can find a way to somehow PERFECTLY preserve the brain and transfer it immediately into a working body, I can't imagine the results being very pretty. if they did somehow technobable thier way around that, it'd just be another resuscitation measure.

but practicality speaking aside, who'd want to live until the end times? Even if you know your place is in heaven regardless you're basically going to be forced to watch humanity make the same stupid mistakes over and over and over again. Heck i'm not even 30, statistically speaking i'm still young dumb and have most of my life ahead of me and there are some days I emotionally feel like a 50 year old man that looks back at his "Glory days" and wants off this crazy ride.

dude I know ten year olds who feel that way, the last couple years have sucked hard.

 

[Bassoe]

Modern cryonics are just a high-tech version of mummification in the hopes of corporeal resurrection and approximately as effective. And will remain so for the foreseeable future until someone figures out how to synthesize a biochemistry-compatible version of wood frog antifreeze or an equivalent to prevent cell walls being ruptured by expanding ice crystals. And even then, the people who've been frozen now are nonviable, their cells already burst.

In some hypothetical future scenarios where technology advances to the point where death becomes a curable ailment, exactly what'll happen depends upon what the undead have to say:

The undead have no memories of the afterlife, from their perspective, they dreamlessly slept between their death and reanimation. Indicates that either:

1. The afterlife is nonexistent.
2. Memories of the afterlife aren't passed back upon resurrection.
3. The people who theorized that the souls of the dead are dormant until the end of the world, then they're all judged at once were correct.
4. The undead aren't who they say they are, with the resurrection process either creating a new person, possibly brainwashing them into believing they're the old person in the process, or some something inhuman is moving into the empty bodies and pretending.

The undead remember the afterlife and are highly traumatized, either from being abducted from heaven and stuck in a mechanized abomination of mad science and unable to get back of their own accord (suicide's still a sin) or rescued from the torments of hell and desperate to stay 'alive' as long as possible. Which leads to the weird idea of a devoutly theocratic civilization of techno-necromancers who believe necromancy is OK as long as you only resurrect sinners. Necromancy consists of dragging someone's soul back from the afterlife and reinstalling it in their corpse. So reanimating someone who was already experiencing eternal damnation would be a benign thing to do. Being a walking corpse whose free will is subordinate to the necromancer may suck, but unlike eternal torment it won't last forever since eventually the undead body would eventually wear out and furthermore, if someone was resurrected and did good deeds to make up for the sins of their first life, they'd get a second chance at heaven.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Which leads to the weird idea of a devoutly theocratic civilization of techno-necromancers who believe necromancy is OK as long as you only resurrect sinners.

This is a fun concept.

 

[Bassoe]

This is a fun concept.

Default technomantic funerary customs consist of partially reanimating the dearly departed and asking them if they want to be fully reanimated. The dammed will inevitably say yes as being a cyborg zombie slave is comparatively better than returning to hell and be fully resurrected as servitor-tier biomechanical horrors which are worked until they fall apart beyond the ability of the greatest available surgeons and engineers to craft mechanical replacement parts. The sinless on the other hand, will refuse and die again in a few minutes when the Mad Science wears off, then their bodies will be cremated to prevent anyone from being able to resurrect them again and threaten the continuation of their paradisaical afterlives with the possibility that they could again sin in the mortal world.

Dark Technomancy, punishable by summary execution followed by cremation to remove any chance of resurrection and forgiveness, consists of any of the following sins:

• Resurrecting and enslaving those who don't want it/not deactivating the life-support of any resurrected who voluntarily request it shut off. This has universally been solely the domain of the damned, the torments of hell are so horrible that their victims have universally considered cybernetic undead slavery the superior option and nobody snatched from heaven didn't want to return.
• Using the resurrected for sinful purposes. The whole justification for bringing them back was to give them a second chance at doing good and repenting their sins so they wouldn't have to go back to hell, damning their souls with even more sins is contrary to that.
• Attempting to negotiate with the demons of hell. Use a zombie as a message courier, tell them what you want them to say, switch them off for a few minutes to send them to hell, then reactivate them to hear what the demons told them to say in reply. Not only is this incredibly cruel to the damned soul being used, there's also the matter of the most common forms of negotiation, variations on "if I serve you in the mortal world, will you reward me with a cushy retirement in hell rather than eternal torture despite my sins or give me supernatural worldly powers here and now including making me too powerful to die?" According to all official sources on the matter, any demonic claims that they can and will do such things are lies and the useful idiots who believed them are tortured just the same as any other sinner when they die, but according to various conspiracy theories, said debunkments are the lie and the official sources just don't want everyone killing each other in unholy sacrificial blood rites to gain superpowers or unleashing demonic invasions, accidentally or otherwise.

 

[Bassoe]

The only question is, would it make more sense as futurism (the techno-necromancy technologies are invented tomorrow) or alternate history (John Murray Spear's Machine actually works)?

 

[Scottty]

If on the other hand, Cyronics does not work, then it could put my immortal soul in danger, if I am engaging in a sort of reverse Pascalian wager, which could be a mortal sin?

Leaving aside all the fantasy necromancy stuff - it looks to me as if you are coming at this from the point of view of Roman Catholic teaching in which committing suicide is considered a mortal sin, and also you are assuming that you'd be alive up to the point they freeze you - so would you just be consenting to euthanasia?

I don't speak for the RCC sect, but my own thought on that matter is that to be guilty of suicide, you'd have to know that what you are doing will kill you, but do it anyway.
Whereas if you honestly thought you were just being put into a medical coma, you're not guilty of suicide if it turns out that what the doctor does kills you instead.
People don't go to Hell for dying on an operating table if the surgeons goof up.

 

[WolfBear]

Question about cryonics working vs. not working: What do you guys think about this woman's case?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_B%C3%A5genholm

Or, even more intensely, this man's case?

Injured hiker survived 24 days on mountain by 'hibernating'

· Body temperature fell to 22C but clean bill of health · First known human case may help future treatment

www.theguardian.com

I don't speak for the RCC sect, but my own thought on that matter is that to be guilty of suicide, you'd have to know that what you are doing will kill you, but do it anyway.
Whereas if you honestly thought you were just being put into a medical coma, you're not guilty of suicide if it turns out that what the doctor does kills you instead.
People don't go to Hell for dying on an operating table if the surgeons goof up.

Especially if the operation was deemed necessary to save your life, or to protect you so that someone else could save your life in the future.

 

[Scottty]

Question about cryonics working vs. not working: What do you guys think about this woman's case?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_B%C3%A5genholm

Or, even more intensely, this man's case?

Hibernation is not a cessation of life, just an extreme slowdown of metabolism.
Mitsutaka Uchikoshi still had a pulse.

Anna Bågenholm likewise - though her condition seems closer... but she did not die either. And she certainly did not choose to be frozen to near-death!