MLRS is not particulary useful in urban combat. 155 mm howitzers are better for demolishing urban areas, but if you actually want to destroy the opposing force and not just the masonry, you will have to do it with direct fire, so infantry supported by armor. There is also Raqqa solution, where you target every building with one or more expensive guided bombs as your infantry advances.
Of course destroying whole urban blocks for couple dozen of assclowns would understandably be recieved rather poorly by American public, it's much better to just let the Seattle Dems stew themselves in the mess of their own making and munch popcorn.
As Napoleon said: ''Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.''
The issue here for trump is that if he cracks down-not only does he have dissent in the military brass(and also the troops-whose loyalty in these sorts of situations is always a bit of a gamble-ordering them to use lethal force against Americans might be too much for the common soldier) but also the fact he would be framed non stop as a tyrant oppressing a movement for XYZ buzzword.
He knows this, his aides and advisors know this.
But if he dithers, he only looks weak and encourages further subversion. If he had the media on his side or at least if it was neutral, he could deal with this problem. But not when it’s screaming “he’s launching a coup, he’s a dictator” 24/7.
Whats sad about this whole Raz situation is that he has basically proved the axiom that is as old as tribes. The Axiom of greed, might is right and power vacuum.
But leftists instead of comprehending the very existence of this axiom blame capitalism. Capitalism is basically Satan to them. Its just a thing they blame for everything they don't like when they aren't blaming Patriarchy or Racism.
I don't subscribe to the "all cops are bastards" mindset, but I do believe that there needs to be a comprehensive effort at reform across the nation, and the events of these past weeks have only reinforced that belief. What form that reform will take, I don't know enough to say; I just know that the current state of things is simply unacceptable.
If things really are as peaceful as some sources claim, I don't expect it to last. One of the natural laws of society appears to be 'this is why we can't have nice things'.
Edit: I also don't see anyone 'running interference', as you put it; just some posters saying things to the effect of "this won't end well".
If things really are as peaceful as some sources claim, I don't expect it to last. One of the natural laws of society appears to be 'this is why we can't have nice things'.
Edit: I also don't see anyone 'running interference', as you put it; just some posters saying things to the effect of "this won't end well".
No, there was a tweet that got outed as a fake, and multiple members are snarking about how this will all go to crap pretty quickly. Shit like this has already started happening, and no one is trying to shout it down.
Edit: They're also lampooning Angela Rye for saying statues of Washington and Jefferson should come down.
Reading the list of demands, I am now going to go through them one by one.
The problem with putting out this kind of long list to everyone is that no one will respond. They would have been better served making a list of demands separated by jurisdiction. At least then, they stood a chance of getting a response.
Given the historical moment, we’ll begin with our demands pertaining to the Justice System.
The Seattle Police Department and attached court system are beyond reform. We do not request reform, we demand abolition. We demand that the Seattle Council and the Mayor defund and abolish the Seattle Police Department and the attached Criminal Justice Apparatus. This means 100% of funding, including existing pensions for Seattle Police. At an equal level of priority we also demand that the city disallow the operations of ICE in the city of Seattle.
In the transitionary period between now and the dismantlement of the Seattle Police Department, we demand that the use of armed force be banned entirely. No guns, no batons, no riot shields, no chemical weapons, especially against those exercising their First Amendment right as Americans to protest.
We demand an end to the school-to-prison pipeline and the abolition of youth jails. Get kids out of prison, get cops out of schools. We also demand that the new youth prison being built in Seattle currently be repurposed.
We demand that not the City government, nor the State government, but that the Federal government launch a full-scale investigation into past and current cases of police brutality in Seattle and Washington, as well as the re-opening of all closed cases reported to the Office of Police Accountability. In particular, we demand that cases particular to Seattle and Washington be reopened where no justice has been served, namely the cases of Iosia Faletogo, Damarius Butts, Isaiah Obet, Tommy Le, Shaun Fuhr, and Charleena Lyles.
We demand reparations for victims of police brutality, in a form to be determined.
We demand that the City of Seattle make the names of officers involved in police brutality a matter of public record. Anonymity should not even be a privilege in public service.
We demand a retrial of all People in Color currently serving a prison sentence for violent crime, by a jury of their peers in their community.
We demand decriminalization of the acts of protest, and amnesty for protestors generally, but specifically those involved in what has been termed “The George Floyd Rebellion” against the terrorist cell that previously occupied this area known as the Seattle Police Department. This includes the immediate release of all protestors currently being held in prison after the arrests made at 11th and Pine on Sunday night and early Saturday morning June 7th and 8th, and any other protesters arrested in the past two weeks of the uprising, the name Evan Hreha in particular comes to mind who filmed Seattle police macing a young girl and is now in jail.
We demand that the City of Seattle and the State Government release any prisoner currently serving time for a marijuana-related offense and expunge the related conviction.
We demand the City of Seattle and State Government release any prisoner currently serving time just for resisting arrest if there are no other related charges, and that those convictions should also be expunged.
We demand that prisoners currently serving time be given the full and unrestricted right to vote, and for Washington State to pass legislation specifically breaking from Federal law that prevents felons from being able to vote.
We demand an end to prosecutorial immunity for police officers in the time between now and the dissolution of the SPD and extant justice system.
We demand the abolition of imprisonment, generally speaking, but especially the abolition of both youth prisons and privately-owned, for-profit prisons.
We demand in replacement of the current criminal justice system the creation of restorative/transformative accountability programs as a replacement for imprisonment.
We demand autonomy be given to the people to create localized anti-crime systems.
We demand that the Seattle Police Department, between now and the time of its abolition in the near future, empty its “lost and found” and return property owned by denizens of the city.
We demand justice for those who have been sexually harassed or abused by the Seattle Police Department or prison guards in the state of Washington.
We demand that between now and the abolition of the SPD that each and every SPD officer turn on their body cameras, and that the body camera video of all Seattle police should be a matter of easily accessible public record.
We demand that the funding previously used for Seattle Police be redirected into: A) Socialized Health and Medicine for the City of Seattle. B) Free public housing, because housing is a right, not a privilege. C) Public education, to decrease the average class size in city schools and increase teacher salary. D) Naturalization services for immigrants to the United States living here undocumented. (We demand they be called “undocumented” because no person is illegal.) E) General community development. Parks, etc.
1. You want to abolish both the police, court system, and prevent ICE from entering the city. I am going to use what I call the RRR response. If you get rid of the police, who is going to stop Rape? Who is going to stop Rioting? Who is going to stop murderous Rampages? If someone goes to that area and begins shooting people in the head, who is going to stop said shooter? No alternative is offered, because no alternative exists.
2. No force by police. Okay, someone pulls out a gun and blows off a protestor's head in front of police. Don't worry the police will just scold them.
3. Why are the kids in prision? If they raped a baby and then murdered said baby, I would not want that kid back out on the street. Are police shooting kids in schools or arresting them for not doing their homework? I am confused about why having police in schools protecting kids is a bad thing. If there is one place police should be to protect people, it would be schools. I mean if a shooter goes to a school, and starts shooting the kids, how is the shooter going to be stopped?
4. So you want Trump in charge of the investigation at the Federal level. Oh, not Trump, just a special person appointed, well then, who is paying for that? I for one don't want my tax dollars going to waste on something that pointless over in Washington.
5. Reperations for police brutality, alright. Watching police shows was very brutal and triggered me. I want reperations please. I also just transitioned to being black, so can I get some reperations for that as well?
6. Can we also get a public database of all citizens and their crimes as well. Because I think a number of the people making these demands have a criminal history and I would like to know their past to help determine the merits of their demands.
7. What if they pleaded guilty or already had a trial with a jury? How is a retrial going to help? Also, would you trust the evidence collected by the police?
8. So if a protestor raped a person or murdered a person during the protest they should be pardoned. Got it. Pardons for everyone, so go crazy.
9. What if the marijuana was laced with poison and killed people? It is a marijuana related offense, so I guess they are off the hook. Or how about a drug dealer who shot another drug dealer to steal some marijuana, guess we can let them out as well.
10. You do realize that people plead down. So will this amnesty take into account the pre-plea crimes?
11. Felons voting, meh.
Gods this is a long ass list.
12. Alright, then you try and find anyone who wants to be part of your 'new police order'. I hope you get the shit sued out of you.
13. You do realize that the competition in regards to prisons drives down the costs and improves efficiency. Well I guess you can have higher taxes, but I for one want my private and for profit prisions.
14. So what would replace the current criminal justice system? You give a lot of nice sounding words, but nothing to sink one's teeth into. Take for example a person who kidnaps women and chains them in his basement and rapes them for years on end. You want to fix that person with some mental health counseling and no prision. Yeah...no.
15. Again, what is your local anti-crime system? If it is just citizens revolving disputes, perhaps they would form a council, with a council leader to over see the process, and a council of their peers to stand in judgement. Perhaps local people could be trained and given special privileges to enforce law and order. WOW, what an amazing system.
16. Who gets said property if there is no one to claim it? I call dibs first, so it goes to me. Problem solved.
17. What about prisioner on prisioner assult? That seems far more likely.
18. Can we have all your members wear cameras, so the Feds can review the footage to find out the terrorist leaders. It would be a big help, accountability and all that as well.
19. Again, what about RRR? I mean honestly when you have a crack head high out of his mind, attempting to murder/rape someone, giving them cookies and a stern talking to won't work.
We also have economic demands that must be addressed.
We demand the de-gentrification of Seattle, starting with rent control.
We demand the restoration of city funding for arts and culture to re-establish the once-rich local cultural identity of Seattle.
We demand free college for the people of the state of Washington, due to the overwhelming effect that education has on economic success, and the correlated overwhelming impact of poverty on people of color, as a form of reparations for the treatment of Black people in this state and country.
We demand that between now and the abolition of the SPD that Seattle Police be prohibited from performing “homeless sweeps” that displace and disturb our homeless neighbors, and on equal footing we demand an end to all evictions.
We demand a decentralized election process to give the citizens of Seattle a greater ability to select candidates for public office such that we are not forced to choose at the poll between equally undesirable options. There are multiple systems and policies in place which make it impractical at best for working-class people to run for public office, all of which must go, starting with any fees associated with applying to run for public office.
1. Okay, we will start with your home. Lets get rid of it. Don't worry you will have a new place to live in 3-6 months.
2. Well since protesting will be granted amnesty I already burned down all your art.
3. You can go to street college. It is called the School of Hard Knocks.
4. So people can stop paying rent. Then who will pay for all the utilities and trash pickup?
5. How much are the fees? Because last I checked, most election fees are just a filing cost of a couple hundred dollars. Not thousands upon thousands.
Related to economic demands, we also have demands pertaining to what we would formally call “Health and Human Services.”
We demand the hospitals and care facilities of Seattle employ black doctors and nurses specifically to help care for black patients.
We demand the people of Seattle seek out and proudly support Black-owned businesses. Your money is our power and sustainability.
We demand that the city create an entirely separate system staffed by mental health experts to respond to 911 calls pertaining to mental health crises, and insist that all involved in such a program be put through thorough, rigorous training in conflict de-escalation.
1. So you want to appoint doctors on race, not on qualification. I definitely don't want that medical service. Have fun when your stiches leave you with a massive scar or you get an infection and die. Not saying that black people are unqualified, but using anything other than medical skills to grade medical professionals is stupid. You can keep your race based health care system, while I go with my skill based health care system.
2. You burned them all down and the people who burned them down will be released from jail according to your demands.
3. Again, you can scold the cracked out rapist/murderer. That will work. Just avoid the pointy end of the needles.
Finally, let us now address our demands regarding the education system in the City of Seattle and State of Washington.
We demand that the history of Black and Native Americans be given a significantly greater focus in the Washington State education curriculum.
We demand that thorough anti-bias training become a legal requirement for all jobs in the education system, as well as in the medical profession and in mass media.
We demand the City of Seattle and State of Washington remove any and all monuments dedicated to historical figures of the Confederacy, whose treasonous attempts to build an America with slavery as a permanent fixture were an affront to the human race.
1. So you can learn how the Native Americans enslaved other tribes and raped their women. I agree that should be included.
2. Great now you won't discriminate against Republicans or people of religion who don't want to bake custom gay wedding cakes.
3. This is the only thing that is slightly reasonable. I 100% agree that removing Confederate monuments should be a local decision. That said, how many Confederate monuments are in the state of Washington? If it is more than 0, color me surprised.
Transcribed by @irie_kenya and @AustinCHowe. Special thanks to Magik for starting and facilitating the discussion to create this list, to Omari Salisbury for the idea to break the list into categories, and as well a thanks to Kshama Sawant for being the only Seattle official to discuss with the people on Free Capitol Hill the night that it was liberated.
Good, put your names on the document. Make sure to sign it also. Like a Declaration, that is about Independence. That way we know who the leaders are.
MLRS is not particulary useful in urban combat. 155 mm howitzers are better for demolishing urban areas, but if you actually want to destroy the opposing force and not just the masonry, you will have to do it with direct fire, so infantry supported by armor. There is also Raqqa solution, where you target every building with one or more expensive guided bombs as your infantry advances.
Of course destroying whole urban blocks for couple dozen of assclowns would understandably be recieved rather poorly by American public, it's much better to just let the Seattle Dems stew themselves in the mess of their own making and munch popcorn.
As Napoleon said: ''Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.''
The issue here for trump is that if he cracks down-not only does he have dissent in the military brass(and also the troops-whose loyalty in these sorts of situations is always a bit of a gamble-ordering them to use lethal force against Americans might be too much for the common soldier) but also the fact he would be framed non stop as a tyrant oppressing a movement for XYZ buzzword.
He knows this, his aides and advisors know this.
But if he dithers, he only looks weak and encourages further subversion. If he had the media on his side or at least if it was neutral, he could deal with this problem. But not when it’s screaming “he’s launching a coup, he’s a dictator” 24/7.
Okay, let me explain something here.
If you tell a standard infantry solider that the person firing at them, does not care about the country they signed up to defend, has declared themselves not a member of the country anymore, and does not care about their sacrifices? They will treat them as what they want to be.
Everyone seems to think Trump is going to tell Soldiers to open fire on innocent civilian protesters. That is not what the military rules of Engagement consist of. They are to only return fire on valid threats. If they see a weapon and like with the police, they dont drop the weapon or open fire. The soldiers will shoot back.
it seems nearly no one understands this and thinks when the military goes in they get trigger happy.
No, there was a tweet that got outed as a fake, and multiple members are snarking about how this will all go to crap pretty quickly. Shit like this has already started happening, and no one is trying to shout it down.
Edit: They're also lampooning Angela Rye for saying statues of Washington and Jefferson should come down.
Eh less because they disagree and more they are saying “well they were slave holdovers and thus their statues must fall-but if we go after them we’ll engender a larger public backlash than we want”. Seemed to be the gist of it at least to me.
Few people will defend the confederacy-at least not in the South. And even then only more in the rural south these days. Going after the founding father’s is a different matter politically.
One person did say “well the left is too nihilistic and doesn’t realize we need these unifying symbols” but no one replied IIRC and it didn’t seem to get much agreement.
One person said, we should wait ten years to go after Washington and in the mean time seek to complicate(their exact words) his legacy.
In other words-they don’t disagree by and large with taking down their statues, they just realize it would be bad PR and they need more years of propaganda to demonize them before doing so.
Okay, let me explain something here.
If you tell a standard infantry solider that the person firing at them, does not care about the country they signed up to defend, has declared themselves not a member of the country anymore, and does not care about their sacrifices? They will treat them as what they want to be.
Everyone seems to think Trump is going to tell Soldiers to open fire on innocent civilian protesters. That is not what the military rules of Engagement consist of. They are to only return fire on valid threats. If they see a weapon and like with the police, they dont drop the weapon or open fire. The soldiers will shoot back.
it seems nearly no one understands this and thinks when the military goes in they get trigger happy.
Eh less because they disagree and more they are saying “well they were slave holdovers and thus their statues must fall-but if we go after them we’ll engender a larger public backlash than we want”. Seemed to be the gist of it at least to me.
Few people will defend the confederacy-at least not in the South. And even then only more in the rural south these days. Going after the founding father’s is a different matter politically.
One person did say “well the left is too nihilistic and doesn’t realize we need these unifying symbols” but no one replied IIRC and it didn’t seem to get much agreement.
One person said, we should wait ten years to go after Washington and in the mean time seek to complicate(their exact words) his legacy.
In other words-they don’t disagree by and large with taking down their statues, they just realize it would be bad PR and they need more years of propaganda to demonize them before doing so.
Just out of curiosity here. How loyal to trump is the average soldier? And in the event of a crisis, who will they side with?
Depends on the Soldier as most come from different locks of life. Some absolutely Hate trump, but hate what these people do more, some love trump and hate the people and what they are doing. So Average is had to find, but every Soldier took an oath to follow the president and the constitution. In the event of a crisis, Civil War for instance, it would depend on if war crimes are being committed or not. If it is to patrol a city with supposed terrorists or those attempting to go against the military, they wont shoot unless shot at.
Most will side with the government. Especially if they are with those they have been with and deployed with.
The thing is, people again seem ot be claiming trump is going to have his soldiers open fire on people randomly, when that is not an order we have followed since the invasion. We only fire when shot at. Or you see and have goo reason to perceive someone as a threat. For instance lets use Raz. His little militia group would be talked to or at least attempted too by the Army, and unless they open fire things may be resolved peacefully, with the intimidation of the US military alone working to thier favor.
It doesnt help that anyone in the US military who supports ANTIFA and terror groups could be kicked out for going against the nation, or if they were when they joined depending on how long they have been in and if they were deployed, as well as MOS they may see how they were wrong at one point in the past.
Also, MPs should be the police for everywhere. They are assholes to everyone no matter skin color.
TL;DR: Average Soldier would rather die for their country then betray it because some people dont understand the Rules of engagement. I work with people from all locks of life, some agree with my views, some dont. We all agree we will defend our country from people like ANTIFA, Raz, places like the CHAZ who try to become their own nation.
So any chance that regardless of the political spectrum, most of your guys are just waiting for things either to resolve themselves or to be given the order after finding out that they're actually dumb enough to try carving out their own nations and extorting locals?
So any chance that regardless of the political spectrum, most of your guys are just waiting for things either to resolve themselves or to be given the order after finding out that they're actually dumb enough to try carving out their own nations and extorting locals?
Say, any chance there's a feeling that these guys have more firepower and training and funding than first thought? Or simply put, that it won't be easy even without hostages
Say, any chance there's a feeling that these guys have more firepower and training and funding than first thought? Or simply put, that it won't be easy even without hostages
Perhaps training and funding, definitely not firepower. I doubt any of them have anything higher then a 50, if they have a 50 at all and enough ammo to be a threat with it. They surely dont have any full auto weapons. They have nothing that will pose a threat to even the uparmored humvees of the Army
Perhaps training and funding, definitely not firepower. I doubt any of them have anything higher then a 50, if they have a 50 at all and enough ammo to be a threat with it. They surely dont have any full auto weapons. They have nothing that will pose a threat to even the uparmored humvees of the Army
