ISOT Black Army in Westeros

[Aldarion]

By act of ROB, Golden Company is replaced by the Black Army under Pal Kiniszi, not long before Young Griff comes to them. Assuming that Kiniszi still decides to support YG in order to obtain employment / safe base for his army, what does this mean for invasion of Westeros?

 

[PsihoKekec]

Firearms revolution

 

[Aldarion]

Firearms revolution

I was thinking more strategy / diplomacy and the upcoming battle with Reach forces.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Do we have any more information than what was written in the Dance with Dragons? Anyway, Black Army being strangers in a strange land will color the relations to some extent, Griff will trust them less than he trusted the Golden Company.

 

[Aldarion]

Do we have any more information than what was written in the Dance with Dragons? Anyway, Black Army being strangers in a strange land will color the relations to some extent, Griff will trust them less than he trusted the Golden Company.

Agreed. Though it is not like he has much choice.

Militarily, they have unusually large number of cavalry for Westerosi standards - 20 000 cavalry out of 28 000 strong force. So I figure it may have impact on the campaign, particularly battle against Mace.

 

[ATP]

By act of ROB, Golden Company is replaced by the Black Army under Pal Kiniszi, not long before Young Griff comes to them. Assuming that Kiniszi still decides to support YG in order to obtain employment / safe base for his army, what does this mean for invasion of Westeros?

Black powder instead of elephants ? i would take it.And Black army fought turks and germans, when Golden company only Essosi mercaneries.Another reason to replace them.

 

[Aldarion]

Black powder instead of elephants ? i would take it.And Black army fought turks and germans, when Golden company only Essosi mercaneries.Another reason to replace them.

There is also the fact that Black Army has much more cavalry and troops in general (8 000 infantry, 20 000 cavalry vs 8 000 infantry, 2 000 cavalry) but no elephants, which I imagine might have significant impact on field battle outside the Storm's End against Mace Tyrell. Do we know what force Mace is leading on Storm's End?

 

[Deleted member 88]

The GC had ten thousand men(though their scattered throughout the Stormlands' coasts).

I would guess, the cavalry would equalize the Reach Lords cavalry. Also Mace is being hyped up as a dud to be beaten.

Connington's strategy though seems based on defense. Meeting the Reach below Storm's End with archers, a Westerosi Agincourt.

As opposed to meeting them in a frontal cavalry battle.

I expect Connington will still win.

And the Hungarians probably demand land and money for seating Aegon on the Iron Throne-a land in which they have no ties too.

 

[Aldarion]

The GC had ten thousand men(though their scattered throughout the Stormlands' coasts).

I would guess, the cavalry would equalize the Reach Lords cavalry. Also Mace is being hyped up as a dud to be beaten.

Connington's strategy though seems based on defense. Meeting the Reach below Storm's End with archers, a Westerosi Agincourt.

As opposed to meeting them in a frontal cavalry battle.

I expect Connington will still win.

And the Hungarians probably demand land and money for seating Aegon on the Iron Throne-a land in which they have no ties too.

Black Army also had battle wagons IIRC, although I am not certain on numbers. At any rate, Black Army actually has same number of infantry as GC, which means that initial engagement might still play out the same (that is, defensive infantry battle on Connington's part), except that utilization of battle wagons would make it even more favourable for Team Aegon. In fact, this is how Matthias Corvinus describes Black Army's battle tactics (I have overview of his battle tactics in general as well):

…some are light infantry, others heavily armoured, and some are clipeati, which receive double wage as they have servants. Also counted are experts gunners, but they are not as effective as other infantry; they are best behind pavises at beginning of the battle or during sieges. Our rule is that a fifth of infantry are pushkars [note: infantry armed with first matchlock muskets]. …We hold heavy infantry to be immovable wall, and they will die all to one at place they are standing on. If opportunity shows itself, light infantry will break out and attack, but if their attack loses momentum or if they are heavily pressed, they will retreat behind heavy infantry. …All infantrymen and pushkars are surrounded by armatis and clipeatis as a fort. Pavises seem as a fort, behind which light infantry is protected as if behind the walls, from which they attack in proper moment.

“…Main task of both lines is protection of third line of pushkars and fourth line of light infantry armed with bows, spears and axes…”, “…during the attack they would approach enemy lines protected by fire of musketeers [note: likely pushkars, archers and crossbowmen], and once enemy attack had been broken, light infantry would come forth to hand-to-hand combat…”

Of course, Connington might still decide to play differently...

 

[Deleted member 88]

If he plays it via the Agincourt route-knights over a muddy field, he ought to do very well.

The Reach knights will likely be under Mace's oh so competent leadership. Aegon will likely array for battle defensively, and let the Reachmen come to him.

If they do-the Black Company ought to shatter them, especially if they do have crossbows.

After that, if Mace is killed or captured. The Lords Rowan and Tarly defect.

 

[Aldarion]

If he plays it via the Agincourt route-knights over a muddy field, he ought to do very well.

The Reach knights will likely be under Mace's oh so competent leadership. Aegon will likely array for battle defensively, and let the Reachmen come to him.

If they do-the Black Company ought to shatter them, especially if they do have crossbows.

After that, if Mace is killed or captured. The Lords Rowan and Tarly defect.

It is Black Army, and yes, they used crossbows rather extensively.

 

[Deleted member 88]

It is Black Army, and yes, they used crossbows rather extensively.

The GC will probably use that in combination with Summer Islander archers.

Anyways, their late medieval style of warfare(both organizations) seems finely tuned to deal with the very cavalry centric High Medieval Reachmen.

 

[ATP]

Main difference between Reach calvary and Black army knights would be dyscypline - Hungarian would attack and retreat when ordered,but Reach calvary could attack without order.And run without order,too.