Better reaction to mongo invasion in 1241

ATP

Well-known member
I just finished reading "The tatar Khan englismen" by Gabriel Ronay,book about english traitor working for mongols as official envoy to hungarian King Bela,captured with few mongol soldiers in Viener Neustadt in 1241 after mongols start their retreat from Europe,and executed as traitor after trial.

According to author,it was Robert of London,ex-chapellan of Robert Fitzwalter,baron who rebelled against King John in 1216.
All barons and merchants were pardoned after King death,and rich clergy could buy their freedom,but poor one,like Robert,was exiled.
He tried to become Templar,but failed,and then mongols hired him becouse hw was good in learning new languages.


Author mainly wrote about our traitor and how he helped mongols,but also how european rulers failed,or even betrayed,when invasion come.

Both pope and HRE emperor were more occupied in fighting each other then facing mongols,emperor even keep invading Lombardy when mongols attacked Hungary.

France and England almost come to war becouse of english possesions on Continent.

Worst were Venice,which helped mongols with their spy net to get information about Europe,and Austria,which duke provoked murder of Cuman chan who was qest on Hungary and attack on hungarians.
Later,when mongols destroyed hungarian army,he attacked Hungary to get some towns.


So,anybody have idea how exactly Europe could be more efficient facing mongols?
@Skallagrim ? @Circle of Willis ? maybe somebody else?

No ROB or any future weapons,of course,only use what was there arleady.

P.S Mongol plan to take entire Europe decided,that they need 18 years for it.
In 1241 they plan to attack Germany and North Italy.
 
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Seems like you've already identified the major root causes for such a ramshackle historical response to the Mongol incursions by Christian Europe. My understanding is that the Battles of Legnica (Poland) and Mohi (Hungary) weren't even supposed to happen according to the European strategy, the actual plan was for the Polish & Hungarians (and also the Bohemians) to combine their forces in order to have a much better chance against the Mongols - it just got pre-empted by Subutai splitting off a division to crush the Poles and demoralize the Bohemians into retreating with hardly a fight, after which the main Mongol army was free to pulverize the Hungarians.

In order to affect a European victory, it'd probably be easiest just to have Legnica happen differently or not happen at all. The Bohemian king Wenceslaus was apparently literally just 1-2 days away from the army of the Polish dukes & cities led by his brother-in-law Henry 'the Pious' of Silesia when the Mongols got the jump on the latter; have the Mongols be delayed just a little bit and the Polish-Czech armies could've combined as planned. The Bohemians were said to have 2x as men as the Polish did, making for a force large enough that Subutai's lieutenants may not have risked an open battle with them at all (it is worth noting that when they did harass Bohemia after destroying the Polish army, Wenceslaus defeated them).

After that it's a matter of this combined host marching to the relief of the Hungarians while inevitably still enduring harassment by the Mongol secondary division trying to slow them down. Mohi was actually a pretty hard-fought affair where Batu Khan wanted to retreat at one point and the Poles/Bohemians showing up at the right time would seriously screw with the Mongols. That is, assuming Subutai (who, it must be conceded, was a military genius - probably the greatest one of the medieval period - and who inspired modern generals as Hannibal did) and his lieutenants even bother risking a pitched battle at all against the allied armies under these circumstances.

Above all the Europeans' main win condition, so to speak, would just be to hang on until Ogedei Khan dies (better pray he dies on schedule and his life doesn't get extended by the butterfly effect, fortunately for everyone who isn't a Mongol he was aging and a huge alcoholic) and the Mongols in Europe go home to deal with the question of succession. Just a few more months, basically; if Bela IV, Wenceslaus & Henry can do that, they're good. They will have time & less ruined bases from which to rebuild, absorb the lessons of this first round and prepare for any future Mongol invasion, which was exactly how Bela IV's grandson defeated such an invasion by the Golden Horde ~40 years later.

As for the rest, England & France shouldn't be relevant to any response to the Mongol invasions. If they have become relevant, then that must mean the Mongols are tearing up Central Europe and the situation for Christendom has become very grim indeed.

I don't think there's any helping the Papal-Imperial/Guelph-Ghibelline conflict at, or even for some decades before, the mid-13th century point when the Mongols struck: the Hohenstaufens had been locked in intense conflict with the Papacy since Barbarossa's day. On one hand the Papacy had reached the peak of its medieval power & influence (this is not long after the papacy of Innocent III, one of the greatest champions of the idea of Papal supremacy not only in spiritual matters but also over Europe's temporal princes, and still some decades before the disastrous 'Babylonian Captivity' in Avignon & following schism which severely diminished Papal authority).

On the other hand the Staufer are being led by their most brilliant and most ambitious Emperor, Frederick II 'Stupor Mundi'/'Wonder of the World', and he poses a mortal threat to the aforementioned Papal dreams of both spiritual & temporal supremacy - he's out to further build up & throw around the temporal power of the Emperors, and has also inherited the Norman Kingdom of Sicily which gives him a huge & wealthy powerbase in the Popes' underbelly. The Polish high duke Henry gained an advantage over his rivals in the fragmented Poland by allying with the Papacy against Frederick, IIRC that's at least one of the reasons as to how he gained the nickname 'The Pious'. Anyway, point being, it would probably be best for the Christians of Central Europe if they're able to hold the Mongol steamroller back without having to rely overmuch on either Rome or the HRE. If Mohi is won by the Christians or avoided entirely, you would also be able to avoid oddball opportunism like Frederick of Austria's attacks on the Hungarian western frontier.

You'll be pleased to know that the greatest beneficiary of the Mongol invasion of Central Europe being turned back will almost certainly be Poland. Bohemia more or less made it out OK, and Hungary was able to rebuild, but Poland got set back pretty hard by the death of Henry at Legnica as he had been a very capable leader & nearly fully reunited Poland after it fragmented in the 1130s. Even worse, Henry's branch of the House of Piast was from Silesia, and his demise + the incompetence of his successors doomed that part of Poland to further collapse & decline until Silesia was lost to the Bohemians & later Germans, not to be recovered (for the most part) by any Polish state until the modern period.

Henry surviving and going on to finish uniting Poland would produce a stronger, more western-oriented country that also includes Silesia with its wealthy towns, mines, etc. Probably this Poland will be more heavily tied to the states of the HRE, even if they continue to support the Popes against its Emperors; IIRC the Silesian Piasts intermarried frequently with HRE nobility/royalty, with Henry himself being half-German and married to a Bohemian princess. Decent chance that with more involvement in shenanigans to the west, this Poland won't have the time or energy to spare on eastern adventures and thus never unite with Lithuania, remaining a smaller but more compact and (with the benefit of Silesia's resources & deeper ties to the HRE's constituent states & statelets) probably ultimately wealthier kingdom.

Anyway, I don't think a Piast Holy Roman Emperor is necessarily going to happen but with such ties to the Premyslids, King Henry or his descendants might lend a much stronger hand to their Czech ally and (assuming contenders for the imperial crown still more or less look the same when the Staufer lose their grip, quite possible at least in Bohemia's case because Wenceslaus' successor was the highly capable 'Iron and Golden King') derail the rise of the Habsburgs in favor of said Premyslids at the decisive Battle of the Marchfeld. That would definitely alter Europe's future so massively as to make it unrecognizable.
 
A big problem here is that, regardless of adopting a more competent and united strategy, you’re still up against Subutai. Genghis Khan’s right hand, with some of the best troops in the world under his command, will adjust accordingly.
 
Seems like you've already identified the major root causes for such a ramshackle historical response to the Mongol incursions by Christian Europe. My understanding is that the Battles of Legnica (Poland) and Mohi (Hungary) weren't even supposed to happen according to the European strategy, the actual plan was for the Polish & Hungarians (and also the Bohemians) to combine their forces in order to have a much better chance against the Mongols - it just got pre-empted by Subutai splitting off a division to crush the Poles and demoralize the Bohemians into retreating with hardly a fight, after which the main Mongol army was free to pulverize the Hungarians.

In order to affect a European victory, it'd probably be easiest just to have Legnica happen differently or not happen at all. The Bohemian king Wenceslaus was apparently literally just 1-2 days away from the army of the Polish dukes & cities led by his brother-in-law Henry 'the Pious' of Silesia when the Mongols got the jump on the latter; have the Mongols be delayed just a little bit and the Polish-Czech armies could've combined as planned. The Bohemians were said to have 2x as men as the Polish did, making for a force large enough that Subutai's lieutenants may not have risked an open battle with them at all (it is worth noting that when they did harass Bohemia after destroying the Polish army, Wenceslaus defeated them).

After that it's a matter of this combined host marching to the relief of the Hungarians while inevitably still enduring harassment by the Mongol secondary division trying to slow them down. Mohi was actually a pretty hard-fought affair where Batu Khan wanted to retreat at one point and the Poles/Bohemians showing up at the right time would seriously screw with the Mongols. That is, assuming Subutai (who, it must be conceded, was a military genius - probably the greatest one of the medieval period - and who inspired modern generals as Hannibal did) and his lieutenants even bother risking a pitched battle at all against the allied armies under these circumstances.

Above all the Europeans' main win condition, so to speak, would just be to hang on until Ogedei Khan dies (better pray he dies on schedule and his life doesn't get extended by the butterfly effect, fortunately for everyone who isn't a Mongol he was aging and a huge alcoholic) and the Mongols in Europe go home to deal with the question of succession. Just a few more months, basically; if Bela IV, Wenceslaus & Henry can do that, they're good. They will have time & less ruined bases from which to rebuild, absorb the lessons of this first round and prepare for any future Mongol invasion, which was exactly how Bela IV's grandson defeated such an invasion by the Golden Horde ~40 years later.

As for the rest, England & France shouldn't be relevant to any response to the Mongol invasions. If they have become relevant, then that must mean the Mongols are tearing up Central Europe and the situation for Christendom has become very grim indeed.

I don't think there's any helping the Papal-Imperial/Guelph-Ghibelline conflict at, or even for some decades before, the mid-13th century point when the Mongols struck: the Hohenstaufens had been locked in intense conflict with the Papacy since Barbarossa's day. On one hand the Papacy had reached the peak of its medieval power & influence (this is not long after the papacy of Innocent III, one of the greatest champions of the idea of Papal supremacy not only in spiritual matters but also over Europe's temporal princes, and still some decades before the disastrous 'Babylonian Captivity' in Avignon & following schism which severely diminished Papal authority).

On the other hand the Staufer are being led by their most brilliant and most ambitious Emperor, Frederick II 'Stupor Mundi'/'Wonder of the World', and he poses a mortal threat to the aforementioned Papal dreams of both spiritual & temporal supremacy - he's out to further build up & throw around the temporal power of the Emperors, and has also inherited the Norman Kingdom of Sicily which gives him a huge & wealthy powerbase in the Popes' underbelly. The Polish high duke Henry gained an advantage over his rivals in the fragmented Poland by allying with the Papacy against Frederick, IIRC that's at least one of the reasons as to how he gained the nickname 'The Pious'. Anyway, point being, it would probably be best for the Christians of Central Europe if they're able to hold the Mongol steamroller back without having to rely overmuch on either Rome or the HRE. If Mohi is won by the Christians or avoided entirely, you would also be able to avoid oddball opportunism like Frederick of Austria's attacks on the Hungarian western frontier.

You'll be pleased to know that the greatest beneficiary of the Mongol invasion of Central Europe being turned back will almost certainly be Poland. Bohemia more or less made it out OK, and Hungary was able to rebuild, but Poland got set back pretty hard by the death of Henry at Legnica as he had been a very capable leader & nearly fully reunited Poland after it fragmented in the 1130s. Even worse, Henry's branch of the House of Piast was from Silesia, and his demise + the incompetence of his successors doomed that part of Poland to further collapse & decline until Silesia was lost to the Bohemians & later Germans, not to be recovered (for the most part) by any Polish state until the modern period.

Henry surviving and going on to finish uniting Poland would produce a stronger, more western-oriented country that also includes Silesia with its wealthy towns, mines, etc. Probably this Poland will be more heavily tied to the states of the HRE, even if they continue to support the Popes against its Emperors; IIRC the Silesian Piasts intermarried frequently with HRE nobility/royalty, with Henry himself being half-German and married to a Bohemian princess. Decent chance that with more involvement in shenanigans to the west, this Poland won't have the time or energy to spare on eastern adventures and thus never unite with Lithuania, remaining a smaller but more compact and (with the benefit of Silesia's resources & deeper ties to the HRE's constituent states & statelets) probably ultimately wealthier kingdom.

Anyway, I don't think a Piast Holy Roman Emperor is necessarily going to happen but with such ties to the Premyslids, King Henry or his descendants might lend a much stronger hand to their Czech ally and (assuming contenders for the imperial crown still more or less look the same when the Staufer lose their grip, quite possible at least in Bohemia's case because Wenceslaus' successor was the highly capable 'Iron and Golden King') derail the rise of the Habsburgs in favor of said Premyslids at the decisive Battle of the Marchfeld. That would definitely alter Europe's future so massively as to make it unrecognizable.
Thanks!
I think that Poland united by Silesia and still supporting popes would be best for our future.We really do not need lands in East.
Lithuania here could become orthodox,ally with Novogrod,and keep fighting Moscov till our times,which would be best for everybody involved.

And,indeed,we could have Czech HRE instead of Habsburgs,which should be better,too.

A big problem here is that, regardless of adopting a more competent and united strategy, you’re still up against Subutai. Genghis Khan’s right hand, with some of the best troops in the world under his command, will adjust accordingly.
You are right - that is why we are taking about surviving,not winning.Both polish Prince and Hungary King could not lost battles,if they do not seek them till allies come.

And,if germans do not provoke Cuman massacre on Hungary,they could stop most of mongol raids without giving battle.
 
I just finished reading "The tatar Khan englismen" by Gabriel Ronay,book about english traitor working for mongols as official envoy to hungarian King Bela,captured with few mongol soldiers in Viener Neustadt in 1241 after mongols start their retreat from Europe,and executed as traitor after trial.

According to author,it was Robert of London,ex-chapellan of Robert Fitzwalter,baron who rebelled against King John in 1216.
All barons and merchants were pardoned after King death,and rich clergy could buy their freedom,but poor one,like Robert,was exiled.
He tried to become Templar,but failed,and then mongols hired him becouse hw was good in learning new languages.


Author mainly wrote about our traitor and how he helped mongols,but also how european rulers failed,or even betrayed,when invasion come.

Both pope and HRE emperor were more occupied in fighting each other then facing mongols,emperor even keep invading Lombardy when mongols attacked Hungary.

France and England almost come to war becouse of english possesions on Continent.

Worst were Venice,which helped mongols with their spy net to get information about Europe,and Austria,which duke provoked murder of Cuman chan who was qest on Hungary and attack on hungarians.
Later,when mongols destroyed hungarian army,he attacked Hungary to get some towns.


So,anybody have idea how exactly Europe could be more efficient facing mongols?
@Skallagrim ? @Circle of Willis ? maybe somebody else?

No ROB or any future weapons,of course,only use what was there arleady.

P.S Mongol plan to take entire Europe decided,that they need 18 years for it.
In 1241 they plan to attack Germany and North Italy.
Better reaction to Mongol invasion will have been for Hungary to actually utilize the castles it had:

Mongols had massive issues taking stone castles, and preferred not even to try. Yet the Mongol doctrine required the khan to capture the enemy ruler. So basically, Hungary's king retreats to Croatia and Polish king to Moravia, and they hole up in stone castles and fortified cities while sending out the limited cavalry they had to harass the Mongols.

But that would require foreknowledge of just how dangerous Mongols are in the open battle which in 1241, they just didn't have. Historically, I just don't think Europe could have done better than it did. And it was good enough: Mongols didn't actually conquer anything outside of Eastern Europe.
 
Better reaction to Mongol invasion will have been for Hungary to actually utilize the castles it had:

Mongols had massive issues taking stone castles, and preferred not even to try. Yet the Mongol doctrine required the khan to capture the enemy ruler. So basically, Hungary's king retreats to Croatia and Polish king to Moravia, and they hole up in stone castles and fortified cities while sending out the limited cavalry they had to harass the Mongols.

But that would require foreknowledge of just how dangerous Mongols are in the open battle which in 1241, they just didn't have. Historically, I just don't think Europe could have done better than it did. And it was good enough: Mongols didn't actually conquer anything outside of Eastern Europe.
Poland do not have King,only strong duke of Silesia who would become King in future if they were no invasion.
And he no need to run,only hold in his castle till Czech King come.

Hungary - the same,King could hold in his capitol.Running to Croatia ws no needed.

And,they knew how dangerous mongols were,becouse they arleady destroyed Chorezm and Kiev.
So yes,we could do better,especially id Venetia do not provided info for them,and Austria do not provoked massacre of Cuman allies.40.000 extra light calvary would be very handy.
 
Hungary - the same,King could hold in his capitol.Running to Croatia ws no needed.
Questionable. Mongols were good at sieging wooden fortifications. And IIRC, neither Buda nor Pest at the time had major stone walls like cities in the southern Croatia.
 
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Questionable. Mongols were good at sieging wooden fortifications. And IIRC, neither Buda nor Pest at the time had major stone walls like cities in the southern Croatia.
You are right,they actually burned his capitol in OTL.So,maybe some castle instead?
 
You are right,they actually burned his capitol in OTL.So,maybe some castle instead?
That is a possibility. Hungary had ten stone castles in 1241, and Mongols were not able to take a single one.

But I cannot help to think Bela may have had some other design beyond sheer survival in his retreat to Croatia. Southern Croatia is quite mountainous - not very good cavalry land! While the Battle of the Grobnik Field is almost certainly apocryphal, it is not out of question that Bela may have intended something like that. Unfortunately, we cannot exactly ask him... unless somebody knows where to find the Necronomicon?
 
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That is a possibility. Hungary had ten stone castles in 1241, and Mongols were not able to take a single one.

But I cannot help to think Bela may have had some other design beyond sheer survival in his retreat to Croatia. Southern Croatia is quite mountainous - not very good cavalry land! While the Battle of the Grobnik Field is almost certainly apocryphal, it is not out of question that Bela may have intended something like that. Unfortunately, we cannot exactly ask him... unless somebody knows where to find the Necronomicon?
Well,some skirmish was possible,mongols send forces to Croatia to capture King after all,and one of recon team could get bloody noose.
Later,let say,300 mongols become 30.000 in people memory.Legends work like that.

But - i still think,that.except hiding in castles,keeping Cumans alive would be crucial.
 

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