Battle of Tukayyid is a Total ComStar Victory

[Bear Ribs]

I actually wound up checking out the audiobooks of the Blood of Kerensky trilogy to listen to at work recently. It was actually a bit startling to realize just how much the clans have been flanderized by memes, the originals in that trilogy were constantly in the midst of political schemes and cunning social maneuvers against each other rather than settling everything by fists. F'rex promoting Ulric Ward to ilKhan was a maneuver to remove him from actual power over Clan Wolf allowing the crusaders to put their own sympathizer in place and switch the Wolves from wardens to crusaders, while also neutering Ulrich's power since he then had to be answerable to all the Khans and there were more crusaders than wardens there so he'd have to follow their will. Ulrich meanwhile outmaneuvered them back by replaying a month's old statement by their proposed Wolf Khan suggesting he wasn't favorable to become Wolf Khan and allowing him to promote Natasha Kerensky to that position. Meanwhile Vlad was making all sorts of maneuvers to eliminate Phelan Kell Wolf because he wanted to cut off a potential rival to the Ward bloodname. The clans clearly were mostly political beasts with great cunning and charisma, rather than barbarians that settled everything with combat trials.

In combat however, they pretty much just laid waste to everything in their path without bothering with trials or even trying to talk to sphereoids. Also, they were a genuine threat, Wolf's Dragoons estimated that a group of the top Mechwarriors in the inner sphere, including Victor Steiner-Davion and Kai-Allard Liao was less capable and had less combat experience/skill than a typical green Sibko whelp did, and it showed in the fights that proceeded.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Plus imagine thinking the lame Inner Sphere nobility could game and abuse the Clan Honor system in Combat better then true moral and ethical tactical luminaries like the Oberon Confederation, Maria Morgraine and Redjack Ryan.

Been there, pwned that.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I mean, in order for Victor Steiner-Davion to actually commence a trial against the Clan Leadership he first had to essentially destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar completely. Then he had to go to their center of power with a massive force in order to contest the clans claims. So...yeah...not so easy.

 

[S'task]

Yeah, this actually makes things worse for the Inner Sphere.

Without any of the Khans present, the balance of power shifts to the home clans, while some of whom are Warden many of which are Crusaders who got outbid. Without Ulric and the Wolves to enforce the agreement (and per OP at this point the Wolves leadership, which was balanced on a razor's edge between Warden and Crusader has lost its top echelon of Wardens leaving the Crusaders to grab power), and with such a systemic destruction of the clans who were present, the BEST case for the Inner Sphere is that the Crusader Home Clans declare the trial only binding to those clan which fought on Tukayyid and not being binding on any of the other Clans.

The fact that all the Khans got killed makes Tukayyid look very suspicious to the Clans... it looks like ComStar likely acted dishonorably and headhunted while not offering honorable retreat to defeated enemies. A few of the Khans dying on the Battlefield? Great, no big deal, shit happens and Khan are partially expected to lead from the front so it's feasible. ALL the Khans getting killed? That's beyond unlikely.

As such, ComStar is likely declared Dezgra and the truce ignored... while also allowing for the Home clans and Invading clans to fully mobalize to punish ComStar as much as possible while also continuing the race for Terra.

Basically the truce would last all of two years with the Clans going completely quiet in the time and then after about two years they would show up with even more forces and no longer fucking around with honorable combat. ComStar facilities on any planet that houses them would be destroyed by orbital fire (the Clans can build and man their own HPGs, they don't need ComStar for that) while Great House forces would likely continue to be handled with at least some degree of honor and decorum.

Because not enough time has passed for further modernization and buildup, none of the Great Houses can really contend against an invasion approximately five times bigger than before and once again fielding warships offensively. Meanwhile ComStar would still be reeling from the schism between itself and Word of Blake, which would still happen here because what drove it was radicals within ComStar who were unhappy with Focht's assassination of the head of the First Circuit and his "secularization" efforts. A greater victory doesn't change any of these events or make them any better.

Thus much of the Inner Sphere burns in conflict. Earth is eventually sieged by the Clans and becomes an utterly massive warzone as the Clans seek to conquer and hold it, devastating the Solar System and planet in continual war. At some point the initial invading Crusader Clans find excuses to break the truce as they won't let the other Clans claim Earth without contest.

 

[King Arts]

No, that's not how it works. The clans have a number of formal trials, but there's no "fight me or else you're a coward" trial. The closest is the trial of grievance, which is a tool for warriors in dispute to resolve their differences, however the "go fight each other" part is the last step, per clan rules the clan council is supposed to rule and try to resolve the issue first. Spoiler alert: the council is smart enough to tell if you're declaring a trial just to try and kill the other guy, and they won't let you.

The next trial is a trial of possession, which is "I want this thing, give it to me or fight me for it", but you don't get to pick who you'll be fighting against. None of the others are really available to someone in this situation.



Also, the clans are very away that the IS will try to game the system, and as the invasion drags on (and in particular post tukayyid) they increasingly stopped playing by those rules when fighting IS forces, and will definitely refuse a challenge that seems like the IS is abusing the system.

Couldn't you challenge the ilkhan to a trial of possession for the title of ilkhan? He has it you want it, fight me for it? Then you bid what you will fight him with, say one super giant robot.

Also what kind of trial was it that comstar got the clans to agree to? I mean they had it where they fought and if Comstar won, the clans had to agree to a 15 year truce. That does not sound like a trial of grievance, or a trial of possession?

I mean, in order for Victor Steiner-Davion to actually commence a trial against the Clan Leadership he first had to essentially destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar completely. Then he had to go to their center of power with a massive force in order to contest the clans claims. So...yeah...not so easy.

Well obviously not easy. Hell the regular battle of Tukayyid was not easy the phone company lost a lot of good men putting up a tough fight. I'm just asking if it was possible, like if someone had a Gundam that ridiculously outperformed all other battlemechs in the setting.

Yeah, this actually makes things worse for the Inner Sphere.

Without any of the Khans present, the balance of power shifts to the home clans, while some of whom are Warden many of which are Crusaders who got outbid. Without Ulric and the Wolves to enforce the agreement (and per OP at this point the Wolves leadership, which was balanced on a razor's edge between Warden and Crusader has lost its top echelon of Wardens leaving the Crusaders to grab power), and with such a systemic destruction of the clans who were present, the BEST case for the Inner Sphere is that the Crusader Home Clans declare the trial only binding to those clan which fought on Tukayyid and not being binding on any of the other Clans.

The fact that all the Khans got killed makes Tukayyid look very suspicious to the Clans... it looks like ComStar likely acted dishonorably and headhunted while not offering honorable retreat to defeated enemies. A few of the Khans dying on the Battlefield? Great, no big deal, shit happens and Khan are partially expected to lead from the front so it's feasible. ALL the Khans getting killed? That's beyond unlikely.

As such, ComStar is likely declared Dezgra and the truce ignored... while also allowing for the Home clans and Invading clans to fully mobalize to punish ComStar as much as possible while also continuing the race for Terra.

Basically the truce would last all of two years with the Clans going completely quiet in the time and then after about two years they would show up with even more forces and no longer fucking around with honorable combat. ComStar facilities on any planet that houses them would be destroyed by orbital fire (the Clans can build and man their own HPGs, they don't need ComStar for that) while Great House forces would likely continue to be handled with at least some degree of honor and decorum.

Because not enough time has passed for further modernization and buildup, none of the Great Houses can really contend against an invasion approximately five times bigger than before and once again fielding warships offensively. Meanwhile ComStar would still be reeling from the schism between itself and Word of Blake, which would still happen here because what drove it was radicals within ComStar who were unhappy with Focht's assassination of the head of the First Circuit and his "secularization" efforts. A greater victory doesn't change any of these events or make them any better.

Thus much of the Inner Sphere burns in conflict. Earth is eventually sieged by the Clans and becomes an utterly massive warzone as the Clans seek to conquer and hold it, devastating the Solar System and planet in continual war. At some point the initial invading Crusader Clans find excuses to break the truce as they won't let the other Clans claim Earth without contest.

So they are assholes who will insist the other side cheated with no proof just because they think no one could possibly beat the powerful clans?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Couldn't you challenge the ilkhan to a trial of possession for the title of ilkhan?

Nope. IlKhan is an elected position believe it or not.

Also what kind of trial was it that comstar got the clans to agree to?

Trial of Possession for Terra IIRC. Comstar loses, and the clans supposedly get their dream.

So they are assholes who will insist the other side cheated with no proof just because they think no one could possibly beat the powerful clans?

Pretty like every polity in Battle Tech.

 

[King Arts]

Nope. IlKhan is an elected position believe it or not.

Hmm, what about the regular khans in charge of a clan? Are they elected or are they just the toughest sob's around? Also can you be part of more than one clan/be khan of multiple clans to get more votes for ilkhan?

Trial of Possession for Terra IIRC. Comstar loses, and the clans supposedly get their dream.

Hmm I thought that the terms were that comstart would not stop the clan invasion of the inner sphere. Or maybe I misremember, most of what I know I get from tex.

Pretty like every polity in Battle Tech.

Well the clans really ape themselves as the apex of human warfare, they use freaking test tube babies. Other nations are just normal chauvinists.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Well obviously not easy. Hell the regular battle of Tukayyid was not easy the phone company lost a lot of good men putting up a tough fight. I'm just asking if it was possible, like if someone had a Gundam that ridiculously outperformed all other battlemechs in the setting.

If you have something ridiculous like a Gundam you're supposed to declare it during the bidding phase of the trial, otherwise you're cheating.

So they are assholes who will insist the other side cheated with no proof just because they think no one could possibly beat the powerful clans?

It's possible to get the clans to admit you beat them, but generally only if you follow their rules scrupulously.

The clans make more sense if you consider them religious fanatics that worship their own DNA. Some of the stuff, like them hating experienced warriors and having a powerful preference for youth, make more sense that way. An experienced warrior with inferior DNA might still, because of skill, beat a callow youth with superior genetics, therefore you should avoid allowing anybody to get too experienced, only enough to make sure they have the right genes and then get them off the battlefield to make room for the new-and-improved generation.

Generally speaking they presume their DNA is superior to yours because of being a Trueborn, and therefore they are superior, and only proving you're actually better in a way that can't be explained away as better equipment, unfair advantage, too much experience covering for weak genes, etc. is going to convince them. Most of the people who actually got that kind of status were ones who were beating Clan 'mechs in obsolete Inner Sphere models where the tech disparity was so large it was obvious that the dude in the Inner Sphere was half aimbot by birth.

Hmm, what about the regular khans in charge of a clan? Are they elected or are they just the toughest sob's around? Also can you be part of more than one clan/be khan of multiple clans to get more votes for ilkhan?

You can challenge your way to Khan but you can't just walk up and demand it. First, you have to be in the clan and test into the Warrior Caste. Next, you can challenge your superior officer, so go from being a 'MechWarrior to commanding a Star, then going up to command a Trinary, and so forth until eventually you can call the Khan out.

You can't be in multiple clans, though you could do a trial of absorption to absorb another clan into yours, it wouldn't get you more votes, just a more powerful clan. OTOH having a more powerful clan would net you more firepower to win trials of refusal and such so indirectly it leads to more political power. You could, of course, always do some horse-trading to get the Khan of another clan to give you his vote in exchange for some other consideration and this goes on a lot.

There's also a certain amount of "Depending on the clan." You can never pull it off with Blood Spirit because they won't take bondsmen or allow anybody not born into their clan to join it. Fire Mandrills have a tendency to be in constant civil wars between their Kindraa so their social dynamics are... odd and there's not enough written about them to really clarify it much. Most clans will just flat-out never allow a freebirth to rise above a certain level regardless of their abilities, and since Freebirths are given significantly poorer equipment and prevented from getting chances to earn any fame or win battles, there's no real way one could possibly make the grade.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Also what kind of trial was it that comstar got the clans to agree to? I mean they had it where they fought and if Comstar won, the clans had to agree to a 15 year truce. That does not sound like a trial of grievance, or a trial of possession?

It was a trial of possession over Terra, with the clans getting it if they won and comstar getting the truce if they didn't.

Hmm, what about the regular khans in charge of a clan? Are they elected or are they just the toughest sob's around? Also can you be part of more than one clan/be khan of multiple clans to get more votes for ilkhan?

IIRC The position of Khan is technically trialed for in a trial of position like any other rank within the clan, but in practice there's load and loads of politics involved in being able to rise to a rank where you can trial for that.

You can't be in multiple clans, though you could do a trial of absorption to absorb another clan into yours, it wouldn't get you more votes, just a more powerful clan.

Also, to be clear for the non-battletech guys, a clan can declare a rite of absorption to incorporate another clan in the same sense that a country in europe can conquer the rest of the continent to gain control of everyone else resources and industy. Yes, you can do it, but it's not easy and most other clans will object to you trying it.

 

[Bear Ribs]

And additionally, the guy you challenge in a trial has the right to choose the weapons, you can't just presume it's going to be a 'mech fight because you're both mechwarriors, he may decide he feels like fighting with knives, or archery, or what have you, and likely will actively pick whatever's to his greatest advantage, especially if he notices you're deficient in some way. Consequently, going all the way to Khan and doing a hostile takeover of a clan is going to require being a master in every weapon and fighting style under the sun if you aren't playing the politics game to grease your path and earn promotions and favors to get you in the seat. Unless you're a complete OCP like a Saiyan or at the very least Captain America it's simply not going to happen.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

what about the regular khans in charge of a clan?

a Clan's Khan is generally selected by the Bloodnamed Warriors in that Clan, by vote. That vote can be challenged, but sometimes is ONLY done for appearances sake. In all the Clans, at the higher levels politics abounds. No one is generally put forward who is not supported by a sizeable faction (traditionally Crusader vs Warden). If, somehow, a Warrior gains the title without the political support of his clan (at least to a large degree), he's in for a very rough time and likely will be removed from office in some way.

The IlKhan is chosen in much the same way.

 

[Chiron]

You should read more of the actual books and not just rely on TTB memes, because "oh no, how could we have possibly lost to a phone company, what are we if we can't even do that" is not how the clans that did lose reacted in canon, and given two of those clans loathed the wolves, I don't think they were consoling themselves by pointing to the wolves managing to win. In canon, they started looking for a reason go break the truce and regain the momentum they'd lost shortly after the trial, and there's no reason they wouldn't do so here.

If they break the agreement, COMSTAR can then say fuck it and break out WMDs and given their vast networks and the Clans leaving them in their rears unmolested. That will bite the Clans in their ass.

Given that in canon the schism wasn't caused by Focht only winning a major victory over the clans instead of a totally one sided one, and that 2nd star league fell apart for completely unrelated reasons, I don't see how any of that vsn happen.

And who is to gainsay Focht if he has an intact force of solid supporters and not one that has been chewed up with heavy causalities? If anything the IS Houses are going to see him as someone to listen to rather than someone who got lucky.

They did no such thing. IS forces failed to follow clans rules of honor, but I don't recall them agreeing to a fight under clan rules and then flagrantly breaking them, at best they'd do tricks like Wolcott.

It is right in the Field Manuals, on Pg 13 and pg 15 of Crusader and Warden Clans respectively. It took a while for the Clans to stop bothering.

Yes, in the aftermath of a battle where the Warren's most skilled and canny advocate is killed, surely some other, even more skilled officer will emerge to keep the crusaders in check and prevent them from restarting the invasion like they did in canon. That sounds plausible.

Because it is and has a lot of historical precedent too. Often times a far more competent leader emerges because the other folks above him/her got killed and he/she was it.

The clans have consistently demonstrated that they don't need comstar's help to hold conquered worlds, and that they can expand into new territory and new planet's without ComStar.

Sure, but a lot of Clans did as it was on offer and aided them in pushing faster without serious action in their rear. But it should also be pointed out the IS did launch successful counter-attacks as well on Clans that did leave rear guards. And if COMSTAR is no longer aiding the Clans and actively helping the IS with all the intel they gathered plus their warfleet. Things get interesting. Especially as the Clans were having to deal with large scale insurgencies and were depleting their ammo stocks. Even before Tukkayyid they were getting grounded down and had the IS stayed united and focused they would have purged the Clans and burnt their worlds to ash.

Um, no, that's not how it works. Clanners aren't orks, they're not going to turn on each other because the boss is dead, they're going to follow the chain of command and hold together. It will impede them, yes, but it's notvlike the IS. An just shrug off the death of a bunch of thier upper command staff either.

Yeah because they seem to not have pointless honor fights in the process with actual shooting and deaths. Or the fact they had several civil wars. This is a poorly put together warrior culture that only works if all their opponents are even worse idiots. Toss up on who was more crazy, WoB or Clans, at least in the WoB's case they never abandoned the inner sphere and if not for the Great Houses having another pointless shitfest, there would have been no Jihad. The Clans are whackjobs descended from cowardly deserters who abandoned their duties and their oaths just because they didn't want to do their job of keeping the damn peace. At the very least they should have holed up in the Terran Hegemony and sat out the successor wars. General Kerensky was a coward, a deserter, and an utter failure of a leader who left the IS in a worse shape than he found it in.

Also, "just go for the ilKhans, lol" is easier said than done, given that ilKhans aren't soft targets by any means. The IS forces would have significant problems if the clans just killed a few of the successor lords, but you can't just run off and kill Victor Steiner-Davion anytime you want.

The Successor States have actual succession laws in place if a reigning lord/lady dies out. The clan's is basically might makes right.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

The Successor States have actual succession laws in place if a reigning lord/lady dies out.

And in all cases...leads to civil war while factions fight it out despite said laws.

 

[Battlegrinder]

If they break the agreement, COMSTAR can then say fuck it and break out WMDs and given their vast networks and the Clans leaving them in their rears unmolested. That will bite the Clans in their ass.

Comstar has, to my recollection, one fleet. The clans have several, and they have better ships as well.

And who is to gainsay Focht if he has an intact force of solid supporters and not one that has been chewed up with heavy causalities? If anything the IS Houses are going to see him as someone to listen to rather than someone who got lucky.

The IS respected Focht after Tukayyid already.

Because it is and has a lot of historical precedent too. Often times a far more competent leader emerges because the other folks above him/her got killed and he/she was it.

Yes, because if there's one society that hold back the truely skilled and capable just because the people above them are still alive, it's the clans.

The Clans are whackjobs descended from cowardly deserters who abandoned their duties and their oaths just because they didn't want to do their job of keeping the damn peace. At the very least they should have holed up in the Terran Hegemony and sat out the successor wars. General Kerensky was a coward, a deserter, and an utter failure of a leader who left the IS in a worse shape than he found it in.

It's impressive how much wrong you fit into such a short space.

1. There was basically nothing left of the Hegemony for the SLDF to hole up in.
2. The successor wars raged for hundreds and hundreds of years. You can't exactly wait that out.
3. Kerensky left because he feared the SLDF breaking up along national lines and making the oncoming conflict even worse. Given that the SLDF did in fact fracture along national lines post-exodus, he was clearly correct to fear that.

 

[Atarlost]

My understanding is that Tukayyid was gamed out at a big convention rather than having a narratively determined outcome. This presumably means there were plans in place for various outcomes. I can't imagine the planned outcome for overwhelming IS victory would have been worse for the IS than the outcome for decisive IS victory.

Because the fan involvement created investment in the setting making that victory for naught would have lost FASA customer loyalty. Whoever lost the trial was guaranteed to respect the outcome for that reason.

I suspect that if the Clans had won the Lyrans and Dracs would have pulled super black boxes out of their asses so Comstar couldn't interdict them and denied the Clans safecon to Sol, but Comstar would have surrendered to the Clans. But since the question is about the IS winning more the outcome would be essentially the same except for some of the Home Clans being cycled to the front after the truce ended.