Battle of Tukayyid is a Total ComStar Victory

[Chiron]

As the tin says. The Com Guards successfully defeat all Clans present, overrunning their LZs, and killing all of their leaders due to better positioning and intel fed to them by an unknown benefactor which they use to maximum effect.

How does this effect the Clans who on top of losing two IlKhans in a short time period, now have the humiliation of being beaten by a phone company that proved to be better fighters than they were.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Pretty sure the bitter clans sulk, then invade the Inner Sphere again right off the bat because Comstar obviously cheated. Hell, maybe they just use their warships to glass Tukayyid too.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

And of course...all of hte home clans will likely get to come play too. Which means that the "homeworlds" MIGHT not go to hell in a handbasket.

 

[Chiron]

Pretty sure the bitter clans sulk, then invade the Inner Sphere again right off the bat because Comstar obviously cheated. Hell, maybe they just use their warships to glass Tukayyid too.

That would take them a year at least as they have to elect a new leader and they did have a deal, so they would then be oath breakers. Which means the Inner Sphere has no choice but to stand together and go for absolute victory which includes going to the Clan Homeworlds and purging them, which would be the best thing. The Clans seriously need to die as an entity.

As for Comstar, it obviously comes out the clear dominant power as they would also have taken the Clan Transport Ships in the process by dint of planetary victory and the stupid honor code the Clans follow.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

If the Clans are just going to go ape, there's nothing requiring them to take add'l time to aside from getting back to their ops areas. The real wait will be the follow on forces from the homeworlds.

Not much the IS can do at the time about the Homeworlds. As written, I think the clans were way too one dimensional, and badly developed as a society (from a writer's perspective...though that one-dimensionality made them simpler to use).

As for the transport vessels...nothing about Tukayyid says that Comstar gets any naval assets. That was never part of the batchall.

 

[Chiron]

If the Clans are just going to go ape, there's nothing requiring them to take add'l time to aside from getting back to their ops areas. The real wait will be the follow on forces from the homeworlds.

Not much the IS can do at the time about the Homeworlds. As written, I think the clans were way too one dimensional, and badly developed as a society (from a writer's perspective...though that one-dimensionality made them simpler to use).

As for the transport vessels...nothing about Tukayyid says that Comstar gets any naval assets. That was never part of the batchall.

I think the shocked Clan Transport Jumpships and Warships wouldn't argue with a clear decisive ComStar victory that strikes at their very being.

 

[King Arts]

Didn’t this actually happen comstar won and humiliated the clans.

 

[Chiron]

Didn’t this actually happen comstar won and humiliated the clans.

Yes but not a total wipe, Clan Wolf didn't act like idiots and did things right and won its side. This op posits a complete wipeout for the Clans with the entire force destroyed or captured and all the Khans killed.

 

[King Arts]

Yes but not a total wipe, Clan Wolf didn't act like idiots and did things right and won its side. This op posits a complete wipeout for the Clans with the entire force destroyed or captured and all the Khans killed.

Ok, now I get it. Well maybe Clan Wolf would no longer get wanked so hard, because from what I see they are more wanked than the Davions.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Which means the Inner Sphere has no choice but to stand together and go for absolute victory which includes going to the Clan Homeworlds and purging them, which would be the best thing.

I don't think the IS can actually do that. It was a major effort to wipe out one clan, trying take on all them, at the far end of a year long logistical train, when the clans have warships and the IS doesn't.....yeah, I don't like those odds.

I think the shocked Clan Transport Jumpships and Warships wouldn't argue with a clear decisive ComStar victory that strikes at their very being.

Yes, they would, because the ships weren't part of the batchall. You don't get to change the terms of the agreement after the fight starts, that's not how it works. If comstar tried, it would only confirm to the clans that the spheroids were dishonorable and duplicitous, and they'd likely use it as excuse to repudiate the entire battle.

Ok, now I get it. Well maybe Clan Wolf would no longer get wanked so hard, because from what I see they are more wanked than the Davions.

Both Wolf Khans being taken out is bad, because that means Vlad Ward likely winds up in charge, and unlike Ulric and Natasha, Vald was a stanch crusader. Also, no Ulric means no Refusal War, so a much more united crusader clan offensive resumes shortly after the battle.


Ultimately the clans probably still can't take the sphere, it's just too big and too far away (and they're centuries away from the Dark Age where they gain the ability to just summon piles of equipment out of nowhere to overun the Republic), but they'll do a ton of damage, probably enough to permanently preclude any sort of operation bulldog type operation by the IS at any point.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Honestly....the clans need to do 1 thing to ruin the chances of the IS ever defeating them in the near term. Capture or destroy every IS jumpship they encounter then destroy every jumpship yard they can find.

And something like the complete conquering of their forces on Tukayyid might drive them batty enough to attempt it.

Now...think about the consequences of that for both the IS and Clans...FUGLY.

 

[Chiron]

I don't think the IS can actually do that. It was a major effort to wipe out one clan, trying take on all them, at the far end of a year long logistical train, when the clans have warships and the IS doesn't.....yeah, I don't like those odds.

With a clear victory at Tukayyid, and the Clans in retreat to elect a new Ilkhan which will take a year minimum plus whatever time they need to figure out how they lost so completely to a Phone Company of all factions, one that was ostensibly helping them till they mentioned they wanted to take Terra, will probably have them sulking and soul searching for the whole 15 years agreed to if not more. Also the ComStar Schism is unlikely to happen either as Focht will have way too much street cred and it is unlikely the 2nd Star League will fall apart as it did which means no Jihad which came about because of that. And with the Terran Shipyards and Inner Sphere Shipyards building Warships again and having a more balanced economy, they can definitely pursue a long attritional war.

Yes, they would, because the ships weren't part of the batchall. You don't get to change the terms of the agreement after the fight starts, that's not how it works. If comstar tried, it would only confirm to the clans that the spheroids were dishonorable and duplicitous, and they'd likely use it as excuse to repudiate the entire battle.

Yet, the IS forces did it for some time without repercussions and in far more blatant manners of doing so.

Both Wolf Khans being taken out is bad, because that means Vlad Ward likely winds up in charge, and unlike Ulric and Natasha, Vald was a stanch crusader. Also, no Ulric means no Refusal War, so a much more united crusader clan offensive resumes shortly after the battle.

Possible also possible he gets politically outmaneuvered by the Warders who use this loss as justification to hang back which causes a rift and civil war amongst the Clans.

Ultimately the clans probably still can't take the sphere, it's just too big and too far away (and they're centuries away from the Dark Age where they gain the ability to just summon piles of equipment out of nowhere to overun the Republic), but they'll do a ton of damage, probably enough to permanently preclude any sort of operation bulldog type operation by the IS at any point.

Unlikely, as they got as far as they did because ComStar was guarding their rear. That changes, and the 2nd Star League holds together, they start getting their teeth kicked in and their head repeatably bashed. Especially as the IS will now know to go right after the IlKhans to lock the clans into a self-perpetuating command crisis making it easier to paralyze and break them up to where they can be defeated in detail.

 

[Battlegrinder]

With a clear victory at Tukayyid, and the Clans in retreat to elect a new Ilkhan which will take a year minimum plus whatever time they need to figure out how they lost so completely to a Phone Company of all factions, one that was ostensibly helping them till they mentioned they wanted to take Terra, will probably have them sulking and soul searching for the whole 15 years agreed to if not more.

You should read more of the actual books and not just rely on TTB memes, because "oh no, how could we have possibly lost to a phone company, what are we if we can't even do that" is not how the clans that did lose reacted in canon, and given two of those clans loathed the wolves, I don't think they were consoling themselves by pointing to the wolves managing to win. In canon, they started looking for a reason go break the truce and regain the momentum they'd lost shortly after the trial, and there's no reason they wouldn't do so here.

Also the ComStar Schism is unlikely to happen either as Focht will have way too much street cred and it is unlikely the 2nd Star League will fall apart as it did which means no Jihad which came about because of that. And with the Terran Shipyards and Inner Sphere Shipyards building Warships again and having a more balanced economy, they can definitely pursue a long attritional war.

Given that in canon the schism wasn't caused by Focht only winning a major victory over the clans instead of a totally one sided one, and that 2nd star league fell apart for completely unrelated reasons, I don't see how any of that vsn happen.

Yet, the IS forces did it for some time without repercussions and in far more blatant manners of doing so.

They did no such thing. IS forces failed to follow clans rules of honor, but I don't recall them agreeing to a fight under clan rules and then flagrantly breaking them, at best they'd do tricks like Wolcott.

Possible also possible he gets politically outmaneuvered by the Warders who use this loss as justification to hang back which causes a rift and civil war amongst the Clans.

Yes, in the aftermath of a battle where the Warren's most skilled and canny advocate is killed, surely some other, even more skilled officer will emerge to keep the crusaders in check and prevent them from restarting the invasion like they did in canon. That sounds plausible.

Unlikely, as they got as far as they did because ComStar was guarding their rear. That changes, and the 2nd Star League holds together, they start getting their teeth kicked in and their head repeatably bashed.

The clans have consistently demonstrated that they don't need comstar's help to hold conquered worlds, and that they can expand into new territory and new planet's without ComStar.

Especially as the IS will now know to go right after the IlKhans to lock the clans into a self-perpetuating command crisis making it easier to paralyze and break them up to where they can be defeated in detail.

Um, no, that's not how it works. Clanners aren't orks, they're not going to turn on each other because the boss is dead, they're going to follow the chain of command and hold together. It will impede them, yes, but it's notvlike the IS. An just shrug off the death of a bunch of thier upper command staff either.

Also, "just go for the ilKhans, lol" is easier said than done, given that ilKhans aren't soft targets by any means. The IS forces would have significant problems if the clans just killed a few of the successor lords, but you can't just run off and kill Victor Steiner-Davion anytime you want.

 

[King Arts]

You should read more of the actual books and not just rely on TTB memes, because "oh no, how could we have possibly lost to a phone company, what are we if we can't even do that" is not how the clans that did lose reacted in canon, and given two of those clans loathed the wolves, I don't think they were consoling themselves by pointing to the wolves managing to win. In canon, they started looking for a reason go break the truce and regain the momentum they'd lost shortly after the trial, and there's no reason they wouldn't do so here.



Given that in canon the schism wasn't caused by Focht only winning a major victory over the clans instead of a totally one sided one, and that 2nd star league fell apart for completely unrelated reasons, I don't see how any of that vsn happen.



They did no such thing. IS forces failed to follow clans rules of honor, but I don't recall them agreeing to a fight under clan rules and then flagrantly breaking them, at best they'd do tricks like Wolcott.



Yes, in the aftermath of a battle where the Warren's most skilled and canny advocate is killed, surely some other, even more skilled officer will emerge to keep the crusaders in check and prevent them from restarting the invasion like they did in canon. That sounds plausible.



The clans have consistently demonstrated that they don't need comstar's help to hold conquered worlds, and that they can expand into new territory and new planet's without ComStar.



Um, no, that's not how it works. Clanners aren't orks, they're not going to turn on each other because the boss is dead, they're going to follow the chain of command and hold together. It will impede them, yes, but it's notvlike the IS. An just shrug off the death of a bunch of thier upper command staff either.

Also, "just go for the ilKhans, lol" is easier said than done, given that ilKhans aren't soft targets by any means. The IS forces would have significant problems if the clans just killed a few of the successor lords, but you can't just run off and kill Victor Steiner-Davion anytime you want.

But the successors lords are regular nobles they got their power through lineage and succession. If it’s too dangerous they can hang back in the capital and direct the war there. Whereas with the clans it is a warrior society and you could challenge the leader to a duel by calling them a pussy.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Of course no clanner has to accept a challenge issued by dezgra filth.

 

[Battlegrinder]

But the successors lords are regular nobles they got their power through lineage and succession. If it’s too dangerous they can hang back in the capital and direct the war there. Whereas with the clans it is a warrior society and you could challenge the leader to a duel by calling them a pussy.

First, what Monk said, the clans don't have to accept that challenge.

Secondly, no you actually can't just walk up to the ilkhan and issue a batchall like that.

Third, if you do manage to force the ilkhan into a trial, congrats, you're now fighting a guy that rose to his present rank by fighting in trials much like this, and he has a top of the line clan battlemech and you don't. Good luck with that.

 

[King Arts]

Of course no clanner has to accept a challenge issued by dezgra filth.

I just googled it, on Sarna it says it applies to dishonorable units, and it gave two examples one was a Clan unit that failed, and the other option was the Draconis Combine. That still leaves four other successor state militaries plus mercenaries that haven't been considered formally dezgra right?

First, what Monk said, the clans don't have to accept that challenge.

Secondly, no you actually can't just walk up to the ilkhan and issue a batchall like that.

Third, if you do manage to force the ilkhan into a trial, congrats, you're now fighting a guy that rose to his present rank by fighting in trials much like this, and he has a top of the line clan battlemech and you don't. Good luck with that.

Then how would you issue a challenge to the ilkhan if you can't walk up to him and challenge him to a duel what is the process?

As for him being a bad ass, uhh yeah probably but it's still a legal "honorable" way to kill the leader of a nation you couldn't do it to the Davions or Merricks, or Steiner's because those nations would not accept you killing their leader as legitimate. But if you had some super robot like Megas XLR, or a Gundam or something and issued a challenge to many of them you vs them they would have to accept or be seen as cowards and dishonorable for not facing you. Isn't that how it works?

 

[Battlegrinder]

Then how would you issue a challenge to the ilkhan if you can't walk up to him and challenge him to a duel what is the process?

As for him being a bad ass, uhh yeah probably but it's still a legal "honorable" way to kill the leader of a nation you couldn't do it to the Davions or Merricks, or Steiner's because those nations would not accept you killing their leader as legitimate. But if you had some super robot like Megas XLR, or a Gundam or something and issued a challenge to many of them you vs them they would have to accept or be seen as cowards and dishonorable for not facing you. Isn't that how it works?

No, that's not how it works. The clans have a number of formal trials, but there's no "fight me or else you're a coward" trial. The closest is the trial of grievance, which is a tool for warriors in dispute to resolve their differences, however the "go fight each other" part is the last step, per clan rules the clan council is supposed to rule and try to resolve the issue first. Spoiler alert: the council is smart enough to tell if you're declaring a trial just to try and kill the other guy, and they won't let you.

The next trial is a trial of possession, which is "I want this thing, give it to me or fight me for it", but you don't get to pick who you'll be fighting against. None of the others are really available to someone in this situation.



Also, the clans are very away that the IS will try to game the system, and as the invasion drags on (and in particular post tukayyid) they increasingly stopped playing by those rules when fighting IS forces, and will definitely refuse a challenge that seems like the IS is abusing the system.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

What @Battlegrinder said @King Arts

I think you're looking at the Clans through their Memes. They're a much more capable group of people than most give them credit for.

 

[Battlegrinder]

They're a much more capable group of people than most give them credit for.

I wouldn't go quite that far. No, they're not like Klingons with Battlemechs, but at the end of the day clan policy is still usually decided with the mechanism of "whoever can win a fistfight is correct", either as a direct result of said fistfight or or because all the people that set policy got to that position via winning fistfights.