Babylon 5 Babylon 5 General Thread

[Husky_Khan]

Apparently we don't have a general Babylon 5 thread which is odd because I swear we had discussions on The Sietch about a Babylon 5 reboot happening on CW but... maybe my keyword searching is a fail.

Anyways... to open up this thread... here is a cool YouTuber I found who covers a lot of fandoms... but has especially focused on factions in Babylon 5. Pretty short videos so far, but that's not a bad thing and it's definitely worth checking out.

The name of the channel is 'Utopian Broadcast' and they've been churning out these videos for over four years apparently.

Here's one on the Shadow Fleet that was the first one of the videos I saw.



He's also done breakdowns on the Earth Alliance, Narn, Centauri, Dilgar and Vorlon fleets etc. He's also done some "Versus" style videos like United Earth from early Star Trek versus the Earth Alliance and even lore videos on subjects ranging from personal shields in Star Trek to Wizarding Bloodlines from the Potterverse.

So yeah... check it out if you want to check it out!

 

[Carrot of Truth]

I was re watching Babylon 5 a few days ago, (It's all on the Roku app for free) Anyways I realized how strange and unique that series was. I cannot imagine something like it being made nowadays. I really sort of long for that sort of science fiction where its more introspective rather than just being a bunch of CGI explosions and shitty one liners. Where did things go wrong?

 

[Spartan303]

The EA is very expansionistic and aggressive. It'll happen. Lord...just think about the madness once the Inner Sphere discovers Telepaths do exist.

EA was expansionist to a point but not overtly aggressive. But they had some seriously aggressive neighbors who were encroaching on their borders. By the Levy administration the EA was actually starting to downsize the Military now that Earth was established and reaping in the dough from trade and a new treaty with the Narn (one of the aggressive neighbors testing their borders.) The Earth/Minbari war changed all that.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The EA is very expansionistic and aggressive. It'll happen. Lord...just think about the madness once the Inner Sphere discovers Telepaths do exist.

It's worth pointing out that in B5 canon, worldwide mass rioting and mass murder of anyone even *suspected* of being a teep ensued within days of the publication of the academic paper that proved telepathy was real, and did not subside until the government negotiated a deal that effectively enslaved all telepaths "for public safety". This does not make any particular amount of sense, of course.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

It's worth pointing out that in B5 canon, worldwide mass rioting and mass murder of anyone even *suspected* of being a teep ensued within days of the publication of the academic paper that proved telepathy was real, and did not subside until the government negotiated a deal that effectively enslaved all telepaths "for public safety". This does not make any particular amount of sense, of course.

Fear makes people to stupid things. Especially when you combine that with people looking to gain more power.
The EA was, unfortunately, to become an example of humanity governed in fear and arrogance all at once.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Fear makes people to stupid things. Especially when you combine that with people looking to gain more power.
The EA was, unfortunately, to become an example of humanity governed in fear and arrogance all at once.

Note that the legal system in B5 *explicitly* classifies teeps *not* as persons, but as government-owned surveillance devices. That is the fundamental basis for all of the laws regulating teeps. The ultra-creepy part is that the writer has expressed that he sincerely believes this is the *only* way a law-abiding society could "realistically" handle the existence of telepathy.

You really see the nonsensical-ness of it in the very first episode with Bester: the "heroes" are instantly antagonistic towards Bester because he's an "evil" Psi Cop -- even though it's *their* government that *requires* Psi Cops to exist and that unilaterally *sets* all the regulations that Psi Cops enforce. They maliciously interfere with his lawful authority as a Psi Cop even though he's *literally trying to save their lives*, their interference *directly* causes the death of his partner, and then the station commander somehow thinks the solution is to *blackmail Bester over his partner's death* to force him to cover up the command crew siding with a dangerous criminal...just because.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Oh yeah. The EA is all sorts of repugnant.

 

[evilchumlee]

Normally i'm against reboots, but I would love a B5 reboot. I didn't watch it when it was coming on new, there's no nostalgia factor for me. I was young and tribalist at the time. I picked my sides. Deep Space 9, WWF, Pepsi. I saw Babylon 5 as the WCW of sci-fi. Looking back, there was probably cool stuff, but I was a loyal kid.

I've tried to go back and watch it but hot damn it did not age well. I just can't do it. I know there's a good show in there, but I can't get past the presentation.

It's a franchise that I think would benefit greatly from a reboot.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Normally i'm against reboots, but I would love a B5 reboot. I didn't watch it when it was coming on new, there's no nostalgia factor for me. I was young and tribalist at the time. I picked my sides. Deep Space 9, WWF, Pepsi. I saw Babylon 5 as the WCW of sci-fi. Looking back, there was probably cool stuff, but I was a loyal kid.

I've tried to go back and watch it but hot damn it did not age well. I just can't do it. I know there's a good show in there, but I can't get past the presentation.

It's a franchise that I think would benefit greatly from a reboot.

I watched both shows but found Babylon 5 to be better. It is surprising how the CGI aged in the space battles though. They looked beautiful at the time but it has aged a fair bit. The first season or so is really rough while the rest kinda looks like cutscene quality which isn't bad but any means.

The acting in Babylon 5 was a bit more rough in Babylon 5 then DS9 as well and that's in spite of me loving almost all of the actors and their roles. It's a strange thing.

I also want to see about giving Babylon 5 a full watch through sometime. Can't be worse then the time I tackled Andromeda. When it comes to final seasons or episodes that show took the cake.

I used to be negative on a Babylon 5 reboot and was in the camp of they should expand the story, not rehash it again but over time I've seen the appeal of a reboot. Especially with what you mentioned plus so many members of the original cast have passed beyond the rim already it'd be more difficult to do an expansion of the stuff after so long and with less and less connection to the original series.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Yeah, B5 was definitely a bit rough, especially in the 1st season. But there definitely were diamonds in every episode in terms of great characters.

 

[evilchumlee]

I used to be negative on a Babylon 5 reboot and was in the camp of they should expand the story, not rehash it again but over time I've seen the appeal of a reboot. Especially with what you mentioned plus so many members of the original cast have passed beyond the rim already it'd be more difficult to do an expansion of the stuff after so long and with less and less connection to the original series.

From what I know of B5... I haven't watched a whole lot of it but I got most of the story through cultural osmosis... it's a fairly tight story that doesn't really lend itself to expansion to well. You could set something else in the universe, sure, but it doesn't really seem designed for that.

A reboot allows a revisit to the story of B5, with the opportunity to tweak it and make it even tighter. Probably makes sense to alter some of it though and not just literally tell the same exact story again.

 

[Husky_Khan]

From what I know of B5... I haven't watched a whole lot of it but I got most of the story through cultural osmosis... it's a fairly tight story that doesn't really lend itself to expansion to well. You could set something else in the universe, sure, but it doesn't really seem designed for that.

A reboot allows a revisit to the story of B5, with the opportunity to tweak it and make it even tighter. Probably makes sense to alter some of it though and not just literally tell the same exact story again.

Actually while JMS wrote Babylon 5 as a singular story arc with a clearly defined beginning and middle and end and yeah, partially inspired by Lord of the Rings by the end of the series there was actually lots of room for exploring the universe. JMS even foretold things like the Telepath War and the Drakh and it was touched on things in the failed Excalibur series which was its spinoff. There was another spinoff as well but I don't feel any desire bringing it up.

But at the end of Babylon 5 I feel that there could of been a lot of interesting storylines that could've been followed or new ones explored since the galaxy was pretty diverse with its politics and factions and while the Ancient Aliens plot was resolved, it was resolved in a way that left the galaxy open to new storytelling, pretty much like in Star Trek.

Compare it with other linear story science fiction like Halo its way more broad. I feel there was even more narrative freedom and opportunity in post-Babylon 5 verse then say Mass Effect after the Reaper threat was solved (and depending on how ME3 resolved itself).

But with all that said, I think the point still stands that a reboot would be welcome by me. It wouldn't replace the original series but hopefully open up a rebooted version of Babylon 5 to more audiences and the like after being gone for like over twenty years.

 

[evilchumlee]

Oh i'm sure there's absolutely more stories to be told in the universe.

But B5 differs from it's most obvious parallel, Star Trek in that it is very much a serialized story with a clear end. There is a greater universe, but the story is finite. ST is not that, and is more of a universe where various stories take place. It naturally lends itself better to just... telling other stories elsewhere. Not impossible with B5 by any stretch.

My desire for a reboot is somewhat selfish. I want to like B5. I've always wanted to like B5. I like the idea of B5, I like reading about B5. I just don't like watching B5.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Some new YouTuber named 'Phintasmo' whose only released five videos in the two months since he's started and has less then four hundred subs, apparently has released a few Babylon 5 videos amongst that number. The one I just happened upon is about the Season 2 character, Starfury Pilot Warren Keffer.



It's an interesting analysis of him, and how rare he showed up in Season Two despite having main cast billing as opposed to 'featured extra' billing like say, Garibaldi's Deputy of Chief of Security.

Despite his origins and reasons for being on the show, would have to say he was terribly underutilized and developed.

 

[DarthOne]

Lord, I miss the days of Star Trek/Star Wars slap fights. Both franchises are shadows of their former selves, as well as most of popular sci-fi in general.

Only Babylon 5 and Stargate seem to avoided that. And given the plans for a Babylon 5 reboot, as wells as some of the wacky ideas of JMS (guy who made B5) had back in the day (the Minbari were basically going to be transgender and Delenn was going to pretty be be literally so) and the fact he’s gone Trump Derangement Syndrome… yeah, color me worried.

Not to say JMS wasn’t a lefty to start with; he was back in the 90’s, but both him and the media crowd weren’t as crazy. And they were making fun of neo-conservatives, so that’s fine by me.

 

[Agent23]

Lord, I miss the days of Star Trek/Star Wars slap fights. Both franchises are shadows of their former selves, as well as most of popular sci-fi in general.

Yeah, the good old days when SB was actually good.

We would troll, we would screech autistically at each-other and we would actually have frigging fun!

Only Babylon 5 and Stargate seem to avoided that. And given the plans for a Babylon 5 reboot, as wells as some of JMS (guy who made B5) had back in the day and the fact he’s gone Trump Derangement Syndrome… yeah, color me worried.

Not to say JMS wasn’t a lefty to start with; he was back in the 90’s, but both him and the media crowd weren’t as crazy. And they were making fun of neo-conservatives, so that’s fine by me.

The best thing that can happen to B5 is for JMS to suddenly die and leave it alone, and then the rights to it to fall into legal limbo.

I mean, Crusade and TLT were ok-ish, but do you remember TLotR?!?!?

That thing was literal garbage.

And the original Babylon 5 had a writing room comprised of the likes of D. C. Fontana and Harlan Ellison.

And it was made at a time when corpos were not woke and still pushed for competition and quality.

Babylon 5 was NOT a one creative man show.

 

[DarthOne]

Yeah, the good old days when SB was actually good.

We would troll, we would screech autistically at each-other and we would actually have frigging fun!

Yeah. We had no idea how good we had it.

The best thing that can happen to B5 is for JMS to suddenly die and leave it alone, and then the rights to it to fall into legal limbo.

Honestly yes. Back in the early 2000’s I was all for a Babylon 5 continuation. Now I actively dread one.

I mean, Crusade and TLT were ok-ish, but do you remember TLotR?!?!?

That thing was literal garbage.

I see your Legend of the Rangers and raise you.



It’s not even the art style that bugs me. It’s all the lore inconsistency. Also the multiverse plot line, which isn’t even done well.

Then there’s the Shadows getting gunned down like mindless mooks. These are the Big Bads of the franchise (okay, well, kind of *cough* Vorlons too! *cough*). While I know the Shadows are squishier than the Vorlons, they aren’t THAT weak! What the hell?!

And the original Babylon 5 had a writing room comprised of the likes of D. C. Fontana and Harlan Ellison.

And it was made at a time when corpos were not woke and still pushed for competition and quality.

Babylon 5 was NOT a one creative man show.

I honestly forgot just how many of the greats that were involved. Also all good points.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Babylon 5 lore videos?

Yes please.

I don't recall ever seeing videos from this channel before, called Sacred Cow Shipyards but glancing over it, the channel looks like a solid home for science fiction lore videos, especially on space warships and other vehicles, Babylon 5 and elsewhere.

Here's a cool video they had on the Omega-Class Destroyer. But it's not just breaking down the ship, but the history and context that led up to its development and production and deployment like how this development came out of the Earth Alliance victory in the Dilgar War.



It has a bit of a rambling sort of tone as opposed to a scripted one which is interesting as well. Very personable narration.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Babylon 5 lore videos?

Yes please.

I don't recall ever seeing videos from this channel before, called Sacred Cow Shipyards but glancing over it, the channel looks like a solid home for science fiction lore videos, especially on space warships and other vehicles, Babylon 5 and elsewhere.

Here's a cool video they had on the Omega-Class Destroyer. But it's not just breaking down the ship, but the history and context that led up to its development and production and deployment like how this development came out of the Earth Alliance victory in the Dilgar War.



It has a bit of a rambling sort of tone as opposed to a scripted one which is interesting as well. Very personable narration.

I'll have to watch that later!

 

[JagerIV]

An idea I've toyed with when they mentioned the potential or a reboot, and reminded after watching a video on Star Wars, is to have a reboot that turns the original on its head. This can work very well for a sequel. Empire Strikes back did this very well, where many of the virtues that made Luke a great hero in the first were turned into weaknesses, and obviously it starts with a big battle where the Empire wins rather than ending with one where the empire lost. Somewhat less successful but still quite interesting in the prequels where instead of following the rebels beat the empire, we followed the established power crush the rebels and implement total control over the galaxy.

Babylon 5 would be a bit harder here though, since its much less defined than the original star wars, and actually had many of these inversion in the show itself. The Centauri Empire for example starts in decline, then reverses and seems to come back into conquest and expansion, and then give those up. What's the mirror of the Centauri Story? It would basically just be starting with Narn already under the thumb, and then breaking out during the show, rather than starting free, being conquered, and regaining freedom?

The big thing to invert would obviously to have the Shadows win. As in, they actually won the last shadow war a 1,000 years ago. That could be a very interesting idea of what the universe would look like in the case of a shadow victory. Which then would further require a very careful thought of what the Shadows actually wanted and were trying to do. Both the vorlon and Shadows both seemed to have generally operated from the shadows, so the Shadows winning likely wouldn't mean a shadow empire ruling all: the vorlons as the "order" faction didn't even implement some sort of galactic UN/Empire, despite that seeming much more in line with my vague recollection of their explicit philosophy/purpose. Given their angelic form, simply ruling the galaxy as divine being, or at least being the space catholic church providing moral/spiritual guidance to otherwise independent nations/races seems possible, something they if anything took great pains not to do.

The main thing I can immediately think of that the Shadows winning would mean is the Mimbari would not be a power. Assumedly, the Vorlons loosing would at least dramatically weaken their main proxy, if not eliminate them entirely as a power. They would be more in line of Warhammer 40k elves, rather than Warhammer Fantasy elves: a fringe remnant power that's a shadow of their former greatness, rather than a great power/leader in their own right.

the Mimbari not being a thing potentially dramatically opens up human expansion, depending what else is out there, and also possibly makes the Vorlons much more interested in humans than even in cannon, because they don't have the Mimbari to serve as their proxi.