Philosophy Argument for a Federal Monarchy

The problem with monarchy is that a) eventually the worst person gets in charge (like look at the UK: An accident of birth order saved them from having a pedo as king). and b) pretending that a monarchy can be less decentralized than a democracy is hilarious. All that beautiful gridlock goes away. Obama would get through everything he wanted.

Monarchs always try to expand the government as well, because they want more power. And the thing is, it works, because they play the lower powers against themselves. And if they lose, whoop, new monarch, who controls monarch land and their own land. Fuedalism isn't a stable system anymore because of increases in communication technology mean that the advantage for the leigelord is gone, so they have no reason not to take direct control. When we add in nukes, this becomes even stupider.

Feudalism is fundamentally a political system based on the control and distribution of economic rents, so it only works in societies where productivity growth and innovation are relatively stagnant. As technological progress accelerates, power becomes less and less about how much resources you control and more about what you can do with them. This isn't to say that rent seeking has disappeared in the modern world, but that economies that reward rent seeking fall behind those that reward innovation, and resource-poor societies that reward innovation can easily triumph over societies that are resource-rich.

Incidentally, this is why I find "seize the means of production" a confusing slogan: the "means of production" in advanced societies is knowledge, not bodies or physical objects.
 
Okay, I'm on board for cutting out bloat, being ruled by philosopher kings who are held accountable, and my locality deciding how to rule itself. There is just one problem: the practicalities of national security.

each state has its own army, navy and air force. Central military would act as a quick-reaction force, but any major operation would require cooperation of state militaries.

I'm sure each state could easily produce guns on their own for their soldiers to use, but what about extremely complex machines that requires huge industrial complexes to produce, like aircraft carriers and jets? Does each state have their own massive industrial complex for building aircraft carriers and jets for their own state military?

The United States (and Great Britain) has had problems with this decentralization of the military industrial complex in the past (the US American Naval Act of 1794 comes to mind), where local politicians went to Congress (or in the UK's case, Parliament) and tried to have ships built at their localities, so they could provide an economic stimulus to their locality and get reelected (and also get bribes from local businessmen), but the overall endeavor was more expensive than had all of the ships just been built at one place. This was very common in the pre-modern era and plagued several navies at the time. It plagues the UK today, as there are shipyards up and down the UK and in Scotland. For each locality's shipyard, you need a separate supply line, separate project management, etc, which creates massive inefficiency, as opposed to just picking the best shipyard and having them do all the ships.

In other words, with a decentralized military, the nation overall has fewer ships and military resources for their buck than if they had just built it all in one place. Or you could have it all built in one place and then parcel out the ships and resources to various state militaries, but I could imagine that would be bad since whoever controls the complex basically has veto power/extraordinary power over everyone else and that would defeat the point of this decentralized government system in the first place.

Or do we just bite the bullet and accept fewer military resources for our buck in exchange for freedom inside the country? How does that affect our foreign policy/national defense policy? I have no idea how much our military strength would be handicapped.

Or we could order ships to be built at another nation's shipyards, or buy their old ships and jets? And then parcel them out to the various state militaries? How does that get funded, exactly? Etc
 
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I'm sure each state could easily produce guns on their own for their soldiers to use, but what about extremely complex machines that requires huge industrial complexes to produce, like aircraft carriers and jets? Does each state have their own massive industrial complex for building aircraft carriers and jets for their own state military?

No. I was actually thinking more of a model similar to today's US National Guard, where they basically receive old hardware from the central military, plus maybe whatever they can buy on the international market.
 
No. I was actually thinking more of a model similar to today's US National Guard, where they basically receive old hardware from the central military, plus maybe whatever they can buy on the international market.

Well then wouldn't that defeat the point of the decentralization, if the state militaries are at the mercy of the central military to receive their power?

But if they're buying old hardware from other nations, then what about the problems of incompatible parts? For example, if state A buys an aircraft carrier from Spain, and state B buys a carrier from France, then they're going to have incompatible parts and systems. So if the nation goes to war, then that's going to be a logistics nightmare as state militaries A and B won't be able to pool their resources to fix up each other's aircraft carriers?

Or am I thinking wrong?
 
Well then wouldn't that defeat the point of the decentralization, if the state militaries are at the mercy of the central military to receive their power?

But if they're buying old hardware from other nations, then what about the problems of incompatible parts? For example, if state A buys an aircraft carrier from Spain, and state B buys a carrier from France, then they're going to have incompatible parts and systems. So if the nation goes to war, then that's going to be a logistics nightmare as state militaries A and B won't be able to pool their resources to fix up each other's aircraft carriers?

Or am I thinking wrong?

For United States specifically, some local or interstate production would not be out of the question - something akin to European Gripen, Rafale or Eurofighter programmes. But the cost of such would mean that it would most likely only be considered if the central military reneged on its duties... and you also have to consider that factories producing stuff for the central military would be located within states, so chances are that if federal military does not hold up its own end of the bargain, it too would have to buy stuff abroad. Overall, it would be best for everyone to play nice with each other.

And no, distributing production across the states would not mean increased inefficiency: that is how the system pretty much works already. The only difference would be greater duplication of capabilities, maybe, but that would merely mean each state would produce a larger percentage of any weapons system, rather than each weapons system being distributed across more states.

Buying systems abroad would be far from ideal for the reasons you note - but main value of such a possibility existing would be political, not practical.
 
For United States specifically, some local or interstate production would not be out of the question - something akin to European Gripen, Rafale or Eurofighter programmes.

You just named two single polity programs as examples of "interstate" production. Especially ironic with Rafale, which was created specifically because France dropped out of the Eurofighter joint development program.
 
But "more decentralized than yesterday" does not answer the question of "how decentralized".
Fiscally, politically, legally, culturally. I mean for crying out loud, just a few years ago Scotland tried to complete the devolution process and secede from UK. Ditto for Catalonia and Spain. Decentralization that was enacted by British and Spanish governments had its consequences.
And you also have the European Union centralizing the continent and slowly taking powers away from the states.
European Union is not centralizing the continent. And given that basically any decision requires everyone's consent, it's not going to take any power from the states any time soon. Poland and Hungary are the most recent examples - they are getting loads of European subsidies but EU can't even use that for leverage. A member state can tell Brussels to fuck off while simultaneously demanding boatloads of freebies - and be successful.
This push of democratic governments for centralization you conceive of? It's the opposite of what's actually happening in the last 30-40 years.
I don't care how many people kill each other to be king shit of a shit hill as long as they don't get to murder their own citizens.
But that's how its will be. Peaceful secession is an exception.
Monarchies? Look at the list:
Your list is few tens of thousands of entries short, even if we conceive of Ethiopian monarchy as one thing, rather than a number of successor monarchies taking over from each other. It's still an extreme outlier, lost in a sea of Shuns, Palmyras and Soinssons that went up in smoke in very short order.
And that's before we start accounting for general acceleration of life in the last two centuries.
 
Fiscally, politically, legally, culturally. I mean for crying out loud, just a few years ago Scotland tried to complete the devolution process and secede from UK. Ditto for Catalonia and Spain. Decentralization that was enacted by British and Spanish governments had its consequences.

Yes, that it probably delayed the secession process. No need to seceede if you don't even feel the central government.

Decentralization relates to secession in that it is typically a response to secessionist government. But fact that it correlates with secession does not mean it causes it. In fact, typical process is: centralized government > secessionist feelings > "too little, too late" decentralization > secession. Decentralization is not the cause of seccession, but rather the last-ditch effort to save the previously-centralized empire that is falling apart.

European Union is not centralizing the continent. And given that basically any decision requires everyone's consent, it's not going to take any power from the states any time soon. Poland and Hungary are the most recent examples - they are getting loads of European subsidies but EU can't even use that for leverage. A member state can tell Brussels to fuck off while simultaneously demanding boatloads of freebies - and be successful.
This push of democratic governments for centralization you conceive of? It's the opposite of what's actually happening in the last 30-40 years.

It was established as a confederation and is now some wierd mix between confederation, federation and a unitary state. European Commission has a monopoly on the legislative initiative, EU can penalize countries which fail to apply EU laws, and Parliament cannot even propose legislation. But all of that is secondary; what matters the most is the extent of areas which EU itself controls. And that is where primacy of the EU law comes in - that little tidbit is why I consider EU a dictatorship. In Roman Republic, Roman Empire, and medieval states, local law was supreme, and imperial law regulated relations between local municipialities and other local municipalities, as well as local municipalities and the central government. In EU, local law can be rendered irrelevant by the EU legislation, making EU into legislative dictatorship.

But that's how its will be. Peaceful secession is an exception.

For reasons I outlined early in this post.

Your list is few tens of thousands of entries short, even if we conceive of Ethiopian monarchy as one thing, rather than a number of successor monarchies taking over from each other. It's still an extreme outlier, lost in a sea of Shuns, Palmyras and Soinssons that went up in smoke in very short order.
And that's before we start accounting for general acceleration of life in the last two centuries.

That is true. But monarchy does have advantage in that monarch - regardless of whether it will actually happen or not - expects to leave country to a successor. Meaning if he fucks it up, it will be due to incompetence. But democracy is even worse. Majority of people are incompetent at governing and only concerned with immediate profit. This goes doubly for plutocrats who finance the democratic politicians' elections campaigns. As a result, democratic government may well fuck up intentionally. Its only saving grace is that it often gets in its own way - but that goes for HRE's version of government as well, or any type of significantly decentralized government.

so um I'm just going to leave these here.

Wars of the Roses

French Revolution

And both of these were consequences of centralization. England was fairly centralized for a medieval European state, and Wars of the Roses consisted of basically ritualistic combat aimed at taking control of the throne. Meanwhile, French Revolution was caused by Louis XIV centralizing the power in his hands, and stamping onto local rights - which then paved the way for overpowerful magnates and court, which in turn led to the country being run into the ground - not by the nobility, but rather by its own central government. But that is a flaw of overpowerful government, not something that is unique to monarchy: a republic can easily end up the same way.

You just named two single polity programs as examples of "interstate" production. Especially ironic with Rafale, which was created specifically because France dropped out of the Eurofighter joint development program.

Please try to read the post before replying to it. I specifically stated: local or interstate programmes. Local. As in, "single state". There is no contradiction.

And honestly? I'm bloody tired of arguing with the people because they have missed/misread a single word in my post. I don't know if there is something wrong with the way I write, but it happens way too often.
 
And both of these were consequences of centralization. England was fairly centralized for a medieval European state, and Wars of the Roses consisted of basically ritualistic combat aimed at taking control of the throne. Meanwhile, French Revolution was caused by Louis XIV centralizing the power in his hands, and stamping onto local rights - which then paved the way for overpowerful magnates and court, which in turn led to the country being run into the ground - not by the nobility, but rather by its own central government. But that is a flaw of overpowerful government, not something that is unique to monarchy: a republic can easily end up the same way.


dude both of these were the result of people being people and having the ambitions of being people. Unless you intend to exterminate the human race and replace them with synths, you're not going to stop that.
 
dude both of these were the result of people being people and having the ambitions of being people. Unless you intend to exterminate the human race and replace them with synths, you're not going to stop that.

That is true. But decentralization makes such conflicts less destructive. That is the entire point of decentralization: to limit damage any one idiot, or a group of idiots, can cause. Democracy only manages to do the first; subsidiarity does both.
 
That is true. But decentralization makes such conflicts less destructive. That is the entire point of decentralization: to limit damage any one idiot, or a group of idiots, can cause. Democracy only manages to do the first; subsidiarity does both.



pretty sure antifa was pretty decentralized and could have been stopped at any point by well....anybody.
 
pretty sure antifa was pretty decentralized and could have been stopped at any point by well....anybody.

That is in part my point, though I am not sure how decentralized antifa truly were. They're kind of a hive mind, really, and then there is also question of possible external influence (George Soros and his money).
 
That is in part my point, though I am not sure how decentralized antifa truly were. They're kind of a hive mind, really, and then there is also question of possible external influence (George Soros and his money).


and what makes you think a monarchy is suddenly going to fix that. Your not going to fix laziness and the whole "It will never happen to me attitude."
 
and what makes you think a monarchy is suddenly going to fix that. Your not going to fix laziness and the whole "It will never happen to me attitude."

Democracy spreads out responsibility. If you look at human psychology, whenever responsibility is spread out - whenever it is collective instead of individual - nobody behaves responsibly at all. Such a situation destroys any society where it appears, precisely by introducing the attitudes you have noted. Just from that perspective, monarchy is superior... as long as the monarch is not an absolutist "big brother", because then people will expect monarch to do everything instead of them.

Point here is not monarchy, it is decentralization... monarchy is there to remove the temptation to centralize the government in the hopes of using it to push one's own agenda.
 
Point here is not monarchy, it is decentralization... monarchy is there to remove the temptation to centralize the government in the hopes of using it to push one's own agenda.


until of course the king/queen gets a bunch of yes men and centralize in all but name or the people decide "We want a god" and forces him to centralize regardless.
 
until of course the king/queen gets a bunch of yes men and centralize in all but name or the people decide "We want a god" and forces him to centralize regardless.

That is why there are municipal and local etc. rights and governments. With monarchy, push for centralization will come from the ruler himself, but will be opposed by the local governments which will want to preserve their rights. With democracy, everybody pushes for centralization, because everybody has a hope of getting the government all for themselves.
 
That is why there are municipal and local etc. rights and governments. With monarchy, push for centralization will come from the ruler himself, but will be opposed by the local governments which will want to preserve their rights. With democracy, everybody pushes for centralization, because everybody has a hope of getting the government all for themselves.


why would you need a monarcy to accomplish this though? I mean I get symbols don't mean reality and all that jazz, but your talking about using a symbol that has been infamously tied with centralization since biblical times. It'd be like saying you want to install a fuer without the fascism

and even then nothing is going to stop the king from installing yes men.

essentially the best thing you can do is ironically turn the king into a goldstien a figure to constantly demonize and villionize on political posters. you don't need an actual king to do that. just a mirage.
 
why would you need a monarcy to accomplish this though? I mean I get symbols don't mean reality and all that jazz, but your talking about using a symbol that has been infamously tied with centralization since biblical times. It'd be like saying you want to install a fuer without the fascism

and even then nothing is going to stop the king from installing yes men.

To explain in more detail:
1) With democracy, you have system of power which is connected both horizontally and vertically. This means that each political actor has a stake in the central government, as well as the possibility of using said government to promote their own interests. Thus, there is a tendency to accumulate power in the hands of the central government, because everybody will hope to use central government and its power to push their own ideas onto everyone.
2) With monarchy, you have a system of power which is separated vertically, and potentially horizontally as well. This means that central government, instead of presenting a potential for power, is a danger to everyone involved. As a result, there will be a push by local governments to limit the influence of the central government.

King cannot install yes men if he is not installing the men to begin with. Even in middle ages, majority of the officials were installed bottom-up. But they were officials of their own communities, not of the central government. That is a situation I would like to replicate.
 

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