Alien Space Bats have Louis XIV's and Frederick the Great's minds from the end of their lives switch places and move to the other's body in its prime
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@Skallagrim How much of an expert on 17th and 18th century Europe are you? What about you, @stevep?
Skallagrim
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They both feel really, really weird about it. Do they magically become motivated to serve the interests of their new country? (At least Frederick was a huge Francophile, but I don't see him being big on the Catholicism.)
The time-jump is going to be really trippy. Louis XIV in his prime is what? 1680? That's age 42, and he'd pretty much gotten everything under control the way he wanted at that stage. Frederick the Great died in 1786. So he gets thrown back in time just over a century. He has knowledge of future events, so he might be able to use that to his advantage in various ways.
Frederick's "prime" is difficult to assess, though. Physically, it's going to be something like the mid-1740s. But politically, it's much harder to define. I'd say that would be 1772, after the economy has fully recovered from the Seven Years' War, and the First Partition of Poland has gone through. Frederick was 60 by then, though. Either way, Louis XIV died in 1715. So he gets thrown forward in time by 30 years at least, and almost 60 years at most. He's going to be very confused.
The time-jump is going to be really trippy. Louis XIV in his prime is what? 1680? That's age 42, and he'd pretty much gotten everything under control the way he wanted at that stage. Frederick the Great died in 1786. So he gets thrown back in time just over a century. He has knowledge of future events, so he might be able to use that to his advantage in various ways.
Frederick's "prime" is difficult to assess, though. Physically, it's going to be something like the mid-1740s. But politically, it's much harder to define. I'd say that would be 1772, after the economy has fully recovered from the Seven Years' War, and the First Partition of Poland has gone through. Frederick was 60 by then, though. Either way, Louis XIV died in 1715. So he gets thrown forward in time by 30 years at least, and almost 60 years at most. He's going to be very confused.
Louis would invade England after their rebellion against rightfull King in 1688 - he could do so,but failed,becouse navy was there and even win one battle,but army was in germany.No such mistake,then.
Later - do not starting spain mess.
Frederick - do not start 7th year war,made partition of Poland earlier/possible after 1765/
The 18thC was an area of great interest in my youth since, 1775-83 aside it was a peak period for British power
although haven't read massively in recent decades. Know less about the 17thC but have picked up a fair amount over the years.I think you mean Frederick, albeit in Louis's body? By this time he had failed to get Charles II as his puppet and the defeat of the joint intervention against the Dutch had failed. As such the combined strength of the two navies and the opposition to James II would have made a French invasion very difficult. It could be that, since Britain was a major opponent of France for the following nearly 150 years, Frederick might decide that its worth giving up some opportunities on the continent to try and at least greatly sap British power.
Not sure Frederick would have avoided the 'Spanish' mess given the opportunities there seemed for the growth of French power there.
One thing Frederick is very likely to do in France is remove/greatly reduce the brutal treatment of the Huguenots. Both because he wasn't a religious bigot and because he would probably be aware of how much damage this did to the French economy.
Its possible he might also be more willing to encourage French colonization of N America, although as with the last point that depends on how much he can afford to make drastic changes. Plus Frederick, while he realised the strength and wealth that the RN brought to Britain, as a predominantly military figure might still neglect the navy in favour of the army. Whether he could take direct control of the markedly larger French army as he did of the Prussian one and how well it could follow his methods I don't know. Would be interesting however if he lead an army against Churchill or Eugene of Savoy.
Louis in say 1745 has the disadvantages of not knowing future events or even much about the country he now rules. Plus he's never I believe actually lead an army in person, which Frederick has so he's going to struggle when expected to here. Also since he's used to a very luxurious lifestyle and if taken from after he's basically broken the power of the nobility in France he could run into problems with the junkers if he tried something similar in Prussia. Also Frederick by some accounts was a very hands on monarch, largely making most decisions in person which isn't something I think Louis is used to. As such, even if he doesn't display his Catholicism, he could well get into serious problems in Prussia.
If not does the Diplomatic_Revolution still occur in which Britain and Prussia and France and Austria became allies? The article isn't that accurate in late Britain was the only major power to actually support Austria during the war of the Austrian succession and in fact gave up gains in Canada to get French to return parts of the Austrian Netherlands that France had occupied returned to Austrian control. Also I wouldn't say Frederick [as king of Prussia] "had managed to end the prospect of Habsburg-German dominion bordering French lands "?? Traditionally Britain, Austria and the Netherlands had been the key members of the alliance that were seeking to prevent French expansion eastwards into the HRE.
However those points aside does Louis [now king of Prussia] seek to maintain alliance with Paris - ruled by one of his descendants - or to make a new alliance with Britain, which both his own knowledge and what he will learn of history that occurred after his ISOT will make him think of as his prime opponent? This might be irrelevant if France and Austria still make their own move. If so I can't see him being as skilled and decisive in leadership as Frederick is so Prussia is very likely to get crushed if the 7YW still occurs. Britain is likely to suffer as well but that could in the longer term help it.
If he avoids internal disasters or the 7YW then would he be as decisive in opposing say Austrian negotiations with Bavaria, see War_of_the_Bavarian_Succession? Or push the 1st partition of Poland? Given his much weaker hand, as he would see it with small and relatively poor Prussia, I suspect he would be a lot more cautious than Frederick.
i forget,that they switched places.
Frederick in Lousis body - help rightfull King of England keep his throne,not try take Spain,but send more people to North America.
Louis in Frederick - do not start 7th year war,he was too smart for fight 2 powers at once.But still take Silesia from Austria,later could try partition of Poland.Or not - it was risky,too.
Don't forget Frederick was a Protestant himself so I'm less doubtful he would support James against the British government. Plus its going to be a very difficult operation to attempt. It would mean giving up on Louis's plans for expansion into Germany and the Netherlands which had more lasting opportunities.
Frederick might have the sense not to seek to get a Bourbon on the Spanish throne but then would it be another Hapsburg, with a better status than the declining Spanish monarchy so he might be concerned about that.
Where is he going to get the migrants from? Many people in France didn't want to move or weren't allowed to by their landlords as that would reduce their workforce?
I'm not sure that Louis is that smart given his actions OTL and the other issue is whether he would have a choice. Austria wants Silesia back - which Prussia has already taken - so if you still get the diplomatic revolution he may be forced into war. Louis isn't the general that Frederick was and also he's going to have problems with the Prussian junkers if he tries to impose his OTL French system of marginalizing them there.
Protestant who is now King of France.And do nt cared about religion anyway,only about peope obeing him - which french catholic church did,they obey french King,not pope.
He would made France strong - and allied England was more important then some border towns - he knew from history how british fleet become important factor.
migrants - in OTL louis tried and failed made french prince polish King.Frederic would made it true,and add migrants from those lands - peasants,so they would have no problems with obeing french leaders in America.
Louis knew ,that he was no general.That is why he do not start 7th year war,and if he do so,at least without France joining Austria.
What about from other European countries, especially southern Europe? That's where France got most of its migrants for Algeria, after all.
That was later on but possibly a Frederick could try something like that in the 17thC. However it would be more difficult getting people from very far afield simply because much inferior transport systems and serfdom in many places would limit people's movement.
One group he might try using would be the French Huguenots as their likely to be very loyal to a monarch who doesn't persecute them so brutally and getting them in a distant colony would secure them from future possible persecution while also making use of their considerable talents rather than them going to other nations.
Makes sense. That said, though, I thought that Western Europe had already abolished serfdom by this point in time? Even Italy?
Except there's a different between a country allied to you and one held down by force. The 3rd and 4th Stuarts were fools who might be willing to sell Britain's security for power but the vast bulk of the population will be bitterly opposed to being a French ruled puppet.
Frederick would have more talent than Louis and additional knowledge but not sure he could get a French king on the Polish throne because it would upset Russia and at least one of Prussia and Austria. Its simply too far away for reliable projection of power in the 17thC.
Unless he's an idiot Louis won't start a 7YW but as I point out he may not have a choice and without Frederick's leadership Prussia could well struggle to survive such a conflict. Additionally so with the problems Louis is likely to have trying to rule Prussia if he tries anything like his behaviour in France. Prussia simply wouldn't have the wealth for his extravagance and the junkers are likely to bitterly oppose any attempts to sideline them and remove them from military power.
1.bulk of population was poor who have no rights to say anything in politic,and could be any time taken by RN thugs as serfs on its ships.You mean City,which ruled England from their mutiny using kings as puppets.
Personally prefer puppet of another king,not some cabal of rich dudes.
And,they do not have armies - in 1688 used mostly mercaneries from abroad.Once french army land in England,they would made short work of them.
2.It would be hard to achieve - but Russia and Austria in 1696 blocked each other,all he need was to send candidate quickly with small army,polish supporters woud do rest.We stil have efficient army then - it was destroyed by saxons later.
3.You are right,Lousis in Prussia would lost to Austria if war occure.Weak prussia,no partition of Poland,no conqering other german states....much better Europe.
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You don't need full political rights to have an interest in your countries welfare. Historically people dislike a foreign ruler, especially if they are from a country that is an old enemy and doubly so if the occupation is brutal or economically destructive.
Plus that French army has to reach land 1st,.
Briefly possibly, although that was some time in the future even if Frederick knows details of it and it still occurs here. Plus a French candidate could end up antagonizing everybody. Not saying its impossible, just a lot harder than you assume.
Agree on the 1st part. Less certain on the rest. Given the mess Poland was in by that time partition was likely simply because the Russians were unwilling to accept any reform of Poland that might make the government viable. Also with a weaker Prussia, at least during Louis's reign there would be butterflies but how they go no one knows. If the French revolution still occurs then everything is up in the air. If it doesn't then there will be more dynastic conflicts with a wide range of possible outcomes.
1.But city banksters dethroned rightfull ruler from scotland,and take foreign one from continent.Common people would not care,or support Stuarts,not foreigner.
And,french fleet win first battle against combined british-dutch fleet - problem is,army was taking german cities,not ready to sail.
2.Indeed,it would be tricky.But,Frederick would certainly try.
3.Russia wonted control over entire Poland,not Partition.agreed to prussian proposition only when they could not defeat uprising in 1768.
And,french revolution was possible becouse british supported it,british supported it becouse french help USA fight them in 1780,and french help USA becouse they were angry after losing colonies during 7th years war,when they committed most of forces to fight Prussia.
No happen now - even if 7th year war occur,France would be fight only England and some small german states.They would not lost so much colonies,no resentment toward England,so supporting USA,no french revolution.
Actually it was chiefly the fear of a Catholic monarchy that stirred such unrest against James II, coupled with his more autocratic nature. As well as public opinion his primary opponents were the traditional aristocracy, which possibly feared that with French support he might try and do what Louis XIV has done to neuter the French aristocrats.
Itr was actually under William III that a lot of ideas about fiscal management came to Britain and you have the founding of the Bank of England and the like.
He might try but whether he would succeed or not would depend on circumstances. A Frederick, who is more likely to be concerned with regions local to France might be more interested in that than distant projections of influence into Poland.
Russia might want all of Poland but that would have upset both Austria and Prussia as it would have been seen as too great a threat to them so they need the support of those countries, which meant a sharing out of Poland. Especially with Prussia which wanted W Prussia to link up its lands and ended up, albeit relatively briefly ruling Warsaw, at the time a much bigger city than Berlin.
Actually wrong on the 1st bit. Liberal/radical feeling in Britain favoured the early revolution because they saw it as ending up in a parliamentary state like Britain [albeit with a very limited actual franchise] but the bulk of the establishment opposed it. Hence the British intervention as early as 1793 against the rebels. Once it came to the terror and the killing of much of the old elite there was very little support of the revolution in Britain.
Idiot british aristocrat indeed opposed Stuarts with City - and becomed their puppets as a result.They lost their power anyway.
And you could not name opinion of few rich dudes as public opinion.
2.Poland ruled by France would be ideal counter to Austria - so Frederick would certainly try.But you are right,chances was at best 50%.
3.Russia arleady controlled entire Poland - Partition was lost of part of those controlled territories then.We were tsar puppet state,and they wonted keep it that way.
4.Conservatives do not liked revolution,but british goverment still supported it till 1791.All becouse hate for french kings.