Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

[Abhorsen]

Simply to add some legal context to the discussion...

The Ahmaud Arbery Case as Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin Redux

The citizens arrest matters for the felony murder rule, I think. The lawyer notes that he hasn't been charged with false arrest yet, but I could see that changing, and being tacked on. But thanks for the link! I do disagree that this has much to do with the Trayvon Martin death (though certain parts would love to combine the two).

Isn't burglary a felony though? While we now know that nothing is missing, suspecting the perpetrator of a burglary is fleeing would be justified grounds for a citizen arrest.

Sure, but the suspicion would have to be probable and reasonable. I'm not certain what level that is, but given McMichaels got the information second hand, and there wasn't a lot of evidence for it in the first place (all people saw was Arbery enter a building site in broad daylight, then leave). I don't think that rises to probable and reasonable for that offense. Also, from their statement, it seemed that they told that they suspected him for another crime entirely instead, so that would cast doubt on this situation.

Do you have the link to the videos? It doesn't play for me.

Here's a video of the shooting (from Ben Shapiro's reaction):

Spoiler: GRAPHIC: A MAN DIES

 

[Marduk]

Somewhat relevant and curious material is coming out on the internet, documenting Arbery's past interactions with the police. It does show that he wasn't exactly a model citizen in the past, and does have a bit of an aggression problem.

Police: Man brought gun to high school basketball game

A quick acting police officer in Brunswick stopped a teenager with a loaded gun from entering a high school basketball game Tuesday night.

www.news4jax.com

 

[MementoMori]

I was really talking more about the Legal Insurrection video but... eh. Though really the "I also walk through construction sites and nothing happens" is a shitty argument. Really I don't give a shit about the "national" consequences and "rascism" in America, does every time a black person dies and a white person is responsible going to be a national news?

 

[Husky_Khan]

The parallels to previous famous shootings (Trayvon Martin & Michael Brown) that social media and race politics hustlers jumped on is tragically apparent. Without knowing the details beyond how they've been discussed on this thread I'm assuming the outcome might be similar without any serious criminal charges but the shooters lives being ruined (for better or worse) due to the public outcry and shaming.

It's just another media circus, it's so pathetic. Like seriously... four f'ing Prosecutors so far? How many special interests do you need to prosecute a case?

 

[Abhorsen]

I was really talking more about the Legal Insurrection video but... eh. Though really the "I also walk through construction sites and nothing happens" is a shitty argument. Really I don't give a shit about the "national" consequences and "rascism" in America, does every time a black person dies and a white person is responsible going to be a national news?

It does matter that other people walk through construction sites though, it argues against there being reasonable and probable grounds that a felony was committed. In a world where no one walked around on building sites unless they were up to no good, then yeah, reasonable suspicion would be justified.

The parallels to previous famous shootings (Trayvon Martin & Michael Brown) that social media and race politics hustlers jumped on is tragically apparent. Without knowing the details beyond how they've been discussed on this thread I'm assuming the outcome might be similar without any serious criminal charges but the shooters lives being ruined (for better or worse) due to the public outcry and shaming.

It's just another media circus, it's so pathetic. Like seriously... four f'ing Prosecutors so far? How many special interests do you need to prosecute a case?

I don't think it deserves much more attention than any other murder, but this case needed the attention, or it wouldn't have been prosecuted. In contrast, Treyvon Martin's case and the Zimmerman case would have been much better without the media attention.

Personally, I don't think this (in a perfect world) should be a murder case, but instead an involuntary/voluntary manslaughter. But I suspect that murder is the most likely result. I don't think there was any racism here either, just stupidity and self-righteous vigilantees.

 

[MementoMori]

The argument that "I committed a crime and was not arrested, so this other person who committed the same crime also shouldn't" is a very shitty defense. Going inside another person's property, literally trespassing, still under construction or not, unlocked or not is still a crime.

 

[Abhorsen]

The argument that "I committed a crime and was not arrested, so this other person who committed the same crime also shouldn't" is a very shitty defense. Going inside another person's property, literally trespassing, still under construction or not, unlocked or not is still a crime.

It's not actually a crime though. You might think it's a crime, but it actually isn't. Trespassing requires more than just going onto someone else's property. The Colion Noir video goes into this.

 

[MementoMori]

Can you link the video? Because that sounds very ass backwards.

 

[Abhorsen]

Can you link the video? Because that sounds very ass backwards.

Already did. It's in the OP about 1:45 in.

 

[MementoMori]

Ok just watched the video.... it kinda missed the point though, yes we know now, emphasis on now, that nothing is missing. But at the time, it was a suspected burglary, Ahmaud running away doesn't really make him look innocent as well.

So as far as the McMichaels know, the person that is running away right in front of them is suspected of a burglary, which lead to them trying to do a citizen's arrest.

 

[Abhorsen]

So as far as the McMichaels know, the person that is running away right in front of them is suspected of a burglary, which lead to them trying to do a citizen's arrest.

The thing was, McMichaels didn't even see the guy leave. So all he knows is that this person may have been in and out of a house. From this, we have to get to "reasonable and probable grounds" that a burglary was committed. I don't know what that is legally, but it seems higher than that.

Probable cause would not be met, IMO. Reasonable suspicion could probably be met. Since the burden is on the state to prove otherwise, that might help the McMichaels.

Worse, McMichael's statement to police does not reference being told about seeing Arbery entering a home:

Upon my arrival I observed Officer Minshew ( 184) setting up a perimeter. I began speaking with Gregory McMichael who was a witness to the incident. McMichael stated there have been several Break - ins in the neighborhood and further the suspect was caught on surveillance video. McMichael stated he was in his front yard and saw the suspect from the break - ins "hauling ass" down Satilla Drive toward Burford Drive. McMichael stated he then ran inside his house and called to Travis (McMichael) and said "Travis the guy is running down the street lets go". McMichael stated he went to his bedroom and grabbed his .357 Magnum and Travis grabbed his shotgun because they "didn't know if the male was armed or not". Michael stated "the other night" they saw the same male and he stuck his hand down his pants which lead them to believe the male was armed.

So he can't even use that excuse. All of their probable and reasonable grounds would have to be based on Arbery running. Note that the other stuff he mentions weren't things that had happened recently, so Arbery wasn't escaping from those felonies at the time, so no arrest could be made for those either, even if McMichaels had probable cause to believe he did those.

 

[MementoMori]

Hmmm, this statement really does make argument for a justified citizen arrest very weak... Would probably use the self-defense angle really heavily in that case.
Can't you have lead with that police statement? Made me lost a lot of time googling shit.

 

[Abhorsen]

Hmmm, this statement really does make argument for a justified citizen arrest very weak... Would probably use the self-defense angle really heavily in that case.

The thing is that, as far as I can tell, without a citizen's arrest, this makes the situation a false arrest/attempt at a false arrest. The false arrest would be a felony. At that point, they lose all (legal) claim to self defense as it is happening during a felony.

 

[MementoMori]

Well at this point it would probably the lawyer's job and jury whether or not the McMichaels are guilty.

 

[Abhorsen]

Well at this point it would probably the lawyer's job and jury whether or not the McMichaels are guilty.

Sure, but I think we can draw conclusions and make reasoned arguments as well. At some point, the public does need to make a decision outside of the courtroom. For example, OJ murdered his wife, regardless of what the jury said. In addition, I feel confident saying that Amber Heard abused Johnny Depp, without need for a ruling. It is of course important to wait for enough evidence to be available, but at this point, I'm reasonably sure.

IMO, this was a felony murder, with the felony being attempted false imprisonment (which is much easier to prove than false imprisonment, in this case). They basically admit to the cop that they were trying to do a citizen's arrest. If a lawyer can prove that it wasn't a valid one (which doesn't seem hard, given the above), then the McMichaels are screwed. The alternative is that the McMichaels make an argument that they weren't trying to arrest Arbery, but I don't think they have much of a chance there.

Now, morally speaking, are the McMichaels intentional killers? No. But legally they are. Worse, by felony murder, the camera guy probably is too, along with everyone in the posse, even anyone who helped him out. And, as stated before in this thread, I do have some issues with the concept of felony murder in general. But in this case, it is appropriate for at least the shooter.

 

[Isem]

It's just another media circus, it's so pathetic. Like seriously... four f'ing Prosecutors so far? How many special interests do you need to prosecute a case?

Probably in part swapping to a prosecutor who wants to take the case so it can make their career. "I prosecuted the evil racist" tends to be a boon towards one's reelection and political career win or lose even if your case was full of shit.

 

[Abhorsen]

Probably in part swapping to a prosecutor who wants to take the case so it can make their career. "I prosecuted the evil racist" tends to be a boon towards one's reelection and political career win or lose even if your case was full of shit.

A fair amount of this also seems to be prosecutors recusing themselves because they know the defendant, which is very responsible of them. In politically sensitive cases, there is a real need to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, so that when the judgement does come down, people can have faith in the system.

 

[Husky_Khan]

A fair amount of this also seems to be prosecutors recusing themselves because they know the defendant, which is very responsible of them. In politically sensitive cases, there is a real need to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, so that when the judgement does come down, people can have faith in the system.

Yeah one of the reasons why this reminded me of Trayvon was how the State caved to public outrage mobs and appointed a special prosecutor from the state level who tried to pin 2nd Degree murder charges on Zimmerman instead of something perhaps more attainable like manslaughter and (not) shockingly Zimmerman isn't convicted of murder.

I'm not sure if that threshold is significantly higher in a jury trial but that's my operating assumption then and now.

 

[Abhorsen]

Yeah one of the reasons why this reminded me of Trayvon was how the State caved to public outrage mobs and appointed a special prosecutor from the state level who tried to pin 2nd Degree murder charges on Zimmerman instead of something perhaps more attainable like manslaughter and (not) shockingly Zimmerman isn't convicted of murder.

I'm not sure if that threshold is significantly higher in a jury trial but that's my operating assumption then and now.

The threshhold for what? Do you mean public outrage vs actual conviction, or something else?

 

[Husky_Khan]

The threshhold for what? Do you mean public outrage vs actual conviction, or something else?

Conviction of manslaughter versus murder.