Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

I have problems with the felony murder law as well, honestly. For one thing, it makes everyone involved guilty of murder. I do think that a manslaughter charge might be a better level of punishment. But legally speaking, this is classic felony murder. A felony occurs, and one of the felons causes a death. This death becomes a murder under felony murder.
That isn't classic felony murder at all though. Classic felony murder would be a bank robbery where someone gets shot or an arsenist who burns down a house and someone dies inside. One could argue that these guys were reckless with their guns and a death resulted, that is manslaughter. If you can call this felony murder, you might as well not have manslaughter because almost any case of accidental killing could be called felony murder.

They want a murder charge to appease the anti-white mob, no other reason.
 
They had a shotgun (not shouldered) and a handgun (holstered).
The guy has quite a distance that he closed to them. Bolting for the woods, before they would have trained guns on him, he would not have been an easy target at all. Considering how dopey the shotgun guy reacted to him closing in, and the one on pickup, to the fight, he probably would be behind trees by then. And if they hit, they would be clearly in the wrong, hitting a far away escaping person for no good reason, in the back.
But he gave them a good excuse instead.
It doesn't matter what was optimal. By the knowledge of Arbery, did he know, with high certainty, that running was safe? Not safer, not safest, but safe? If not, that's the problem. If you want to argue that running from gunfire is safe, have fun with that.
So did the DA that is no longer on the case say it, or did they say it?
The DA who was dismissed. The issue is, they tried to stop him using force. If it isn't a citizens arrest, they are screwed. So you arguing that it isn't screws them more. At least give them the benefit of the doubt.

By... heading for the source of the threat in completely uncovered route?
Sure. That's a way some people respond to threats. It's a fight or flight response, and he chose flight. Honestly, the inadvisability of the choice speaks to him being actually threatened. This is what stand your ground laws mean. Without a stand your ground law, Arbery might not have a self defense case, had he lived.
That isn't classic felony murder at all though. Classic felony murder would be a bank robbery where someone gets shot or an arsenist who burns down a house and someone dies inside. One could argue that these guys were reckless with their guns and a death resulted, that is manslaughter. If you can call this felony murder, you might as well not have manslaughter because almost any case of accidental killing could be called felony murder.

They want a murder charge to appease the anti-white mob, no other reason.
This is how felony murder has been consistently used, though. To punish accomplices who had no idea a murder was going to happen, and had no part in it. It's done a lot of bad:

Some egregious and relevant examples:
A guy provides his wife heroin. She overdoses and dies. Felony Murder for the Husband.
A guy loans his car to his friends. They commit rob a place and kill someone. Felony Murder for the loaner.
A guy is shot by police while trying to commit a robbery. His girlfriend was the getaway driver. Felony Murder for the Girlfriend.

I could go on and on. Here's Georgia's felony murder:
(c) A person commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

In comparison to some of those, this is a quite normal felony murder case
 
This is how felony murder has been consistently used, though. To punish accomplices who had no idea a murder was going to happen, and had no part in it. It's done a lot of bad:

Some egregious and relevant examples:
A guy provides his wife heroin. She overdoses and dies. Felony Murder for the Husband.
A guy loans his car to his friends. They commit rob a place and kill someone. Felony Murder for the loaner.
A guy is shot by police while trying to commit a robbery. His girlfriend was the getaway driver. Felony Murder for the Girlfriend.

I could go on and on. Here's Georgia's felony murder:


In comparison to some of those, this is a quite normal felony murder case
Okay, you make a good point. I don't think that felony murder appropriate here, but it's a charge that is extremely easy to abuse.
 
It doesn't matter what was optimal. By the knowledge of Arbery, did he know, with high certainty, that running was safe? Not safer, not safest, but safe? If not, that's the problem. If you want to argue that running from gunfire is safe, have fun with that.
Nothing is 100.000000000000% safe, so its a pointless distinction.
What he did was a Rubicon moment, absolutely the least safe option that has changed his legal situation - so much, that the guy didn't even shoot when he had an opportunity for classic controversial "he was coming right at me" self defense, we don't see it clearly, but it seems like the first shot happened because Arbery has grabbed and pulled the shotgun's barrel, taking a non-incapacitating wound to his arm. A fight ensues, after few seconds of struggle and punching a second shot happens, struggle and punching continues, second guy draws his gun, aims, waits for a good angle at the melee, and then fires at Arbery.
A moment after the third shot Arbery disengages from the fight, as if he was running away, and after few steps falls down.
The DA who was dismissed. The issue is, they tried to stop him using force. If it isn't a citizens arrest, they are screwed. So you arguing that it isn't screws them more. At least give them the benefit of the doubt.
What was the use of force? They did behave in a manner that could be considered more or less threatening, but that is not the same as use of force (or confinement), far from it, that's a crucial difference.

Sure. That's a way some people respond to threats.
Yes, but in turn not all responses to threat are necessarily motivated by fear.

It's a fight or flight response, and he chose flight. Honestly, the inadvisability of the choice speaks to him being actually threatened. This is what stand your ground laws mean.
No, stand your ground means stand your ground, not run after a threat (or worse, merely a potential threat that has not initiated physical conflict), and it gets further complicated in case of public spaces, like here.
 
Last edited:
Nothing is 100.000000000000% safe, so its a pointless distinction.
It's not 100% safe, it's what a reasonable person would consider safe. A reasonable person would not consider running from gunfire to be safe.
What was the use of force? They did behave in a manner that could be considered more or less threatening, but that is not the same as use of force (or confinement), far from it, that's a crucial difference.
I phrased this badly. But their hunting and chasing of him, and eventually cutting him off, along with telling him to stop, makes this an arrest attempt. Now, had they not had guns, it would be a failed arrest, as he could have escaped with reasonable safety. But with the guns, that makes it so that a reasonable person could believe themselves to be detained. Note that other, less egregious cases have lead to false imprisonment in tort law.
Yes, but in turn not all responses to threat are necessarily motivated by fear.
It doesn't matter if his response was actually motivated by fear. Instead, it matters if a reasonable person would fear even non lethal harm in such a situation (as Arbery didn't use lethal force). That's a very low bar to clear.

But for a felony murder, it is immaterial whether Arbery was acting in self defense. If the McMichaels did commit a felony, then they lose all claims to self defense. Then since a death occurred, felony murder triggers.
No, stand your ground means stand your ground, not run after a threat (or worse, merely a potential threat that has not initiated physical conflict), and it gets further complicated in case of public spaces, like here.
No, it actually doesn't. What it does is remove the duty to retreat. In a non stand your ground case, you could make the argument that Arbery had an obligation not to escalate the situation, and see if he could run. Stand your ground just means removing this requirement.

Okay, you make a good point. I don't think that felony murder appropriate here, but it's a charge that is extremely easy to abuse.
Yup, it's very easy to abuse, and I would prefer it not be used here (I'm more borderline about this than the other ones I cited, but would probably decide against it) and a number of other places. But in light of this being the law, it makes sense for that to be the charge.

I don't hate felony murder entirely though. For example, in the case of the false Houston Drug Raid, it allowed prosecution of the cop who lied on the report, despite not being the person who shot the victims. But in practice, it is used to punish people who don't deserve it.
 
No, stand your ground means stand your ground
Standing or running towards an attacker has no relation to the law and no legal bearing. 'Stand your ground' is an abstraction and nickname--one that's probably better served communication-wise by 'no duty to retreat'.
Bolded and underlined in the below being the most relevant immediately:
O.C.G.A. 16-3-23.1 (2010)
16-3-23.1. No duty to retreat prior to use of force in self-defense


A person who uses threats or force in accordance with Code Section 16-3-21, relating to the use of force in defense of self or others, Code Section 16-3-23, relating to the use of force in defense of a habitation, or Code Section 16-3-24, relating to the use of force in defense of property other than a habitation, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and use force as provided in said Code sections, including deadly force.
O.C.G.A. 16-3-21 (2010)
16-3-21. Use of force in defense of self or others; evidence of belief that force was necessary in murder or manslaughter prosecution

(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23, a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(b) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in subsection (a) of this Code section if he:

(1) Initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;

(2) Is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or

(3) Was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so and the other, notwithstanding, continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force.

Arbery would not have to plant his feet in one spot to fall under the protections of Georgia's 'stand your ground' law--running at the perceived threat he saw (whether such was a good idea from a seld-preservation standpoint or not) would fully fall under it as a legitimate action to take as his only method of potentially stopping the (perceived) imminent use of unlawful force that shotgun-man presented to him.
Now, whether Arbery's assessment was, itself, reasonable could be argued (the defense will undoubtedly present it as not being so). Considering the actions described, I personally find the threat quite believable, but random yabo opinions are of somewhat immaterial matter to the case. A greater deal probably hinges on the relation of Georgia's citizen's arrest statutes to these self-defense statutes, and whether one trumps the other (presuming that the defendants can effectively claim defense under the arrest statute--which remains to be seen...And presuming they don't fall astray of the 'was the aggressor' caveat above in the resulting self-defense claim assuming they can successfully claim 'citizen's arrest' as a protection).

Point being that 'stand' or 'run at threat' is immaterial to Arbery's status and the latter is fully-justifiable underneath self-defense statutes like Georgia's--all 'stand your ground' does is remove Arbery's duty to try to run away from these attackers if he wanted to claim self-defense (Arbery closing the distance with them when he is unarmed and they have firearms would be quite reasonable from the standard the law presents--it might FAIL and put one in danger, but that's irrelevant).

Other factors are the ones at play that determine things.
 
It's not 100% safe, it's what a reasonable person would consider safe. A reasonable person would not consider running from gunfire to be safe.
But there was no gunfire, no aiming of the weapon at him, and no explicit threat of shooting, as in "stop or else", it was just "stop, we want to talk".
Any threat of the above would be merely an assumption on his part.
I phrased this badly. But their hunting and chasing of him, and eventually cutting him off, along with telling him to stop, makes this an arrest attempt. Now, had they not had guns, it would be a failed arrest, as he could have escaped with reasonable safety. But with the guns, that makes it so that a reasonable person could believe themselves to be detained. Note that other, less egregious cases have lead to false imprisonment in tort law.
I've linked the conditions of false imprisonment before and the "confinement" condition seems very shaky, hanging on a very non-explicit threat of shooting at long range.
It doesn't matter if his response was actually motivated by fear. Instead, it matters if a reasonable person would fear even non lethal harm in such a situation (as Arbery didn't use lethal force). That's a very low bar to clear.
But the whole line of reasoning relies on the assumption that it was in fear for his life...
If he was absolutely correct in that fear, the charge would be absolutely suicidal.
He only could get as close as he did because the two have indeed acted as if they only wanted to talk, rather than shoot him at slightest excuse, or no excuse at all.

And as i mentioned before, with the struggle over the shotgun fear of lethal force becomes a very dodgy issue, as both of them had hands on a lethal weapon while engaged in hand to hand combat.
But for a felony murder, it is immaterial whether Arbery was acting in self defense. If the McMichaels did commit a felony, then they lose all claims to self defense. Then since a death occurred, felony murder triggers.
Perhaps...
But that implies McMichaels gets sentenced for a different felony first. Will he? You seem absolutely sure of it, i'm not. The false imprisonment issue you seem to be pointing at is again far from as clear as you seem to think.
No, it actually doesn't. What it does is remove the duty to retreat. In a non stand your ground case, you could make the argument that Arbery had an obligation not to escalate the situation, and see if he could run. Stand your ground just means removing this requirement.
Arbery would not have to plant his feet in one spot to fall under the protections of Georgia's 'stand your ground' law--running at the perceived threat he saw (whether such was a good idea from a seld-preservation standpoint or not) would fully fall under it as a legitimate action to take as his only method of potentially stopping the (perceived) imminent use of unlawful force that shotgun-man presented to him.
Guess i might be wrong about the legal interpretation of running to close in alone, but...

Looking at the situation from hindsight, he had no reasonable way to stop that threat completely, and if the highest possible assessment of the threat was correct, he would not get nearly as close as he did. In hindsight, shots were fired only once the struggle for the weapon began. If the shotgun man was indeed going to imminently and unlawfully use the shotgun, he had ample opportunity to do so sooner, yet he didn't.

That perception thing what i was hinting at here. That point is to be decided by whether that perception was justified, and that in turn will be based on evidence as far as it is available, including the video. And from the video alone, it seems like a controversial case to be decided on small details, because what we see on the video is not looking like a typical case of "person proceeding to imminently shoot at someone", standing around merely holding the weapon, rather than aiming the weapon at the intended target.
 
But the whole line of reasoning relies on the assumption that it was in fear for his life...
Since Arbery was using non lethal means, he just has to be afraid, not in fear of his life. At that point,
I've linked the conditions of false imprisonment before and the "confinement" condition seems very shaky, hanging on a very non-explicit threat of shooting at long range.
Note that it will probably be under false arrest/detaining, not false confinement, that the false imprisonment charge is brought (false imprisonment is a catch all for detaining, confining, and arresting). The guns only matter in that they make it so he can't run away. The initial impression of being told to stop, and effectively pulled over and questioned, make this much more of an arrest attempt. This lines up with what they McMichaels stated in their statement to police fairly closely. It's really the statement, not the video, that shows confinement.

Also, and this is important, if they are going for the defense of it was a lawful arrest, that is an affirmative defense that means they accept that it was an arrest, and then prosecutors must prove that the arrest was unlawful.
 
Since Arbery was using non lethal means, he just has to be afraid, not in fear of his life. At that point,
Wrong. From the moment it was a struggle over a gun, both of them had their hands on it. At that point shit can happen, and either of them could have gotten shot, intentionally or not, and as such, could claim to be in fear of his life.
Note that it will probably be under false arrest/detaining, not false confinement, that the false imprisonment charge is brought (false imprisonment is a catch all for detaining, confining, and arresting).
So it goes back to this.
What has to be Proven

To be convicted of false imprisonment in Georgia, the State must demonstrate that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That includes showing that the accused had the intent to confine the victim and that there were no reasonable means of escape
Note the and there. If state fails to prove either one of these points beyond reasonable doubt, case falls.
The guns only matter in that they make it so he can't run away.
Oh but do they?
That's wild speculation based on impressions, predictions and assumptions. Maybye, maybye not. Good luck with the "beyond reasonable doubt" here.
The initial impression of being told to stop, and effectively pulled over and questioned, make this much more of an arrest attempt. This lines up with what they McMichaels stated in their statement to police fairly closely. It's really the statement, not the video, that shows confinement.
Statement has unclear wording, and even if it had clear wording, what they said they intended and what they ended up doing may well be different things.

Also, and this is important, if they are going for the defense of it was a lawful arrest, that is an affirmative defense that means they accept that it was an arrest, and then prosecutors must prove that the arrest was unlawful.
Seems like lawyer and line of defense matter.
So i think we can all agree, quite complicated case.
 
The idiot went and and punched a guy holding a gun who is not pointing it at him. Pretty much assisted suicide. From the video he's pretty far away from the guy with the shotgun, the fact that he ran all that distance and then punched the guy repeteadly... Yeah pretty much an open and shut case really.
 
The idiot went and and punched a guy holding a gun who is not pointing it at him. Pretty much assisted suicide.
Also known as self defense, on Arbery's part. On the McMichael's part, probably not, because they initiated the confrontation. Further, if it they were in the process of committing a felony, there is no legal self defense, and it becomes felony murder.
 
Also known as self defense, on Arbery's part. On the McMichael's part, probably not, because they initiated the confrontation. Further, if it they were in the process of committing a felony, there is no legal self defense, and it becomes felony murder.
You know... people who fears for their life usually don't run towards the danger. Whether or not the McMichaels was legally right in their citizen arrest is another matter entirely. The moment he fought for the gun, the McMichaels was the one in a position to fear for their life.
 
You know... people who fears for their life usually don't run towards the danger. Whether or not the McMichaels was legally right in their citizen arrest is another matter entirely. The moment he fought for the gun, the McMichaels was the one in a position to fear for their life.
It's called a flight or fight response. He chose fight. The stupidity of the decision actually argues in favor of him being in fear of his life. Meanwhile, the McMichael's can likely be argued to be the initial aggressors. I'd like to see a better legal definition of initial aggressor before I say for certain, though. If they are the initial aggressor, then they forfeit self defense. If they were committing a felony (which I think they likely were), then they forfeit self defense. At such a point, it doesn't matter if they had the best reason in the world, and Arbery was using a gun against them, they are guilty.
 
It's called a flight or fight response. He chose fight. The stupidity of the decision actually argues in favor of him being in fear of his life. Meanwhile, the McMichael's can likely be argued to be the initial aggressors. I'd like to see a better legal definition of initial aggressor before I say for certain, though. If they are the initial aggressor, then they forfeit self defense. If they were committing a felony (which I think they likely were), then they forfeit self defense. At such a point, it doesn't matter if they had the best reason in the world, and Arbery was using a gun against them, they are guilty.
I'm not sure what felony they would have done though? The media frenzy is really making it hard not to instinctually defend the McMichaels. I mean lynching, really?
 
Here is a Georgia jury instruction for a self defense case, which is slightly more relevant than just the law. I think it's a model jury instruction.
GEORGIA CRIMINAL JURY INSTRUCTIONS (G.C.J.I. 2003)

GA 3.02.10 Justification; Use of Force in Defense of Self or Others


A person is justified in threatening or using force against another person when, and to the extent that, he/she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself/herself or a third person against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person is justified in using force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if that person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself/herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

O.C.G.A. §16-3-21

The State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not justified.


A person is not justified in using force, if that person

a) initially provokes the use of force against himself/herself with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant; or

b) is attempting to commit, is committing, or is fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony (define arguable felony); or

c) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless the person withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates his/her intent to withdraw to the other person, and the other person still continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force.
Just posting the above as a general guide.
I'm not sure what felony they would have done though? The media frenzy is really making it hard not to instinctually defend the McMichaels. I mean lynching, really?
My argument above is that they were doing a false arrest (which is legally called false confinement). This is a felony in Georgia, as the minimum sentence is a year.

As for a lynching, it fits all too well. The fundemental parts of a lynching are vigilantism, death (usually hanging, but others were done), frequently with a lack of punishment/unofficial sanction, and culturally linked to violence done by whites on blacks. I don't think this was racially motivated, but the white on black crime brings up ugly memories. The DA declining to add charges is the lack of punishment The only saving part is that the McMichael's didn't intend to kill him. But we are hitting about 3.5 out of four points to make something a lynching. That's pretty damn close.
 
They did have a reasonable suspicion that Ahmaud Arbery has commited a crime and fleeing the scene of crime. So not sure that a false arrest charge would stick and false confinement would need them actually confining him, asking a person to stop is not really confining them.
I mean with that definition pretty much all death of a black person by a white person is a lynching, isn't that really broad?
 
They did have a reasonable suspicion that Ahmaud Arbery has commited a crime and fleeing the scene of crime. So not sure that a false arrest charge would stick and false confinement would need them actually confining him, asking a person to stop is not really confining them.
First, you can't arrest for a reasonable suspicion of a misdemeanor, you need to know for sure. Further, at the time, Arbery didn't even commit a misdemeanor (trespassing requires more than just going onto someone's property, and his actions there were totally legal). So that can't be a valid reason.

For the arrest to be legal with reasonable suspicion, McMichael's would have to have "reasonable and probable grounds" (probably higher than reasonable suspicion, my guess is to probable cause level, but IANAL), that a) Arbery committed a felony b) at that time and c) was escaping from said felony, when all he knew was that someone entered and left a building site. I don't think you can get to that level of knowledge with that little info.

Here's the citizen's arrest statute:
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

I mean with that definition pretty much all death of a black person by a white person is a lynching, isn't that really broad?
No. The most important part (even more than the race) is the vigilantism. That makes it very rare. Note that vigilantism is more than just unjustified self defense.
 
Last edited:
Isn't burglary a felony though? While we now know that nothing is missing, suspecting the perpetrator of a burglary is fleeing would be justified grounds for a citizen arrest.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top