AHC - Volga Bulgaria defeats Kievan Rus, takes its place in history as a space-filling empire

[raharris1973]

Here's the challenge, have the Volga Bulgars do better and expand successfully at the expense of the Khazars and Rus states in the early medieval period, with them dominating a realm, at least until the arrival of the Mongols, that goes at least as far west as the Dnieper (but the further west the better, so if it goes far enough west to border Poland, Hungary, and the other, Balkan Bulgaria, or the Dniester, even better) the northern Caucasus, the northern Black Sea coast, and touches the White Sea and Baltic Sea.

 

[ATP]

Here's the challenge, have the Volga Bulgars do better and expand successfully at the expense of the Khazars and Rus states in the early medieval period, with them dominating a realm, at least until the arrival of the Mongols, that goes at least as far west as the Dnieper (but the further west the better, so if it goes far enough west to border Poland, Hungary, and the other, Balkan Bulgaria, or the Dniester, even better) the northern Caucasus, the northern Black Sea coast, and touches the White Sea and Baltic Sea.

Mongols would beat them,so nothing change.Mongols would choose Moscov as their favourite slaves to gather money from other.
Unless...remnant of Bulgar empire are strong enough to repel Turks,take Constantinopole and later Anatolia.
We would have still existing Byzantine empire ruled by bulgarians,no ottomans turks,and they would fight over russian lands with Moscov and Poland.
That would be big change.

 

[stevep]

Here's the challenge, have the Volga Bulgars do better and expand successfully at the expense of the Khazars and Rus states in the early medieval period, with them dominating a realm, at least until the arrival of the Mongols, that goes at least as far west as the Dnieper (but the further west the better, so if it goes far enough west to border Poland, Hungary, and the other, Balkan Bulgaria, or the Dniester, even better) the northern Caucasus, the northern Black Sea coast, and touches the White Sea and Baltic Sea.

What would be their religion? I have read that Byzantium turned to supporting the Rus after they converted to Christianity [Orthodox of course] which helped in forcing the decline of the Khazers. If the Volga Bulgars still go Muslim or anyway don't become Orthodox and the Rus still do that's unlikely to change.

 

[raharris1973]

What would be their religion? I have read that Byzantium turned to supporting the Rus after they converted to Christianity [Orthodox of course] which helped in forcing the decline of the Khazers. If the Volga Bulgars still go Muslim or anyway don't become Orthodox and the Rus still do that's unlikely to change.

I'm assuming the Bulgars still go Islamic, and go kick some ass for awhile before the Mongols kick their ass. How much can the territory we know as European 'Russia' on a different path between 922 (when the Bulgars converted to Islam) and the 1220s, when the Mongols came? Note, the Kievan Rus state only converted to Christianity in 987.

 

[stevep]

I'm assuming the Bulgars still go Islamic, and go kick some ass for awhile before the Mongols kick their ass. How much can the territory we know as European 'Russia' on a different path between 922 (when the Bulgars converted to Islam) and the 1220s, when the Mongols came? Note, the Kievan Rus state only converted to Christianity in 987.

True but the issue is that a Muslim state dominating that region, which I think also includes areas never in Khazer influence its going to affect things. Alternatively their going to have other influences on themselves before such a conversion which might alter things.

Being less vulnerable to Byzantine pressure than the Khazers they might well come to dominate the region, possibly being pushed back for a while by the initial Rus/Viking forces then regaining more influence, especially in the south where their cavalry is more practical than the mainly infantry Rus forces. Also in this scenario its likely that the Byzantine-Khazer alliance lasts longer.

If you have a large chunk of what became western Russia/Ukraine OTL coming under Muslim influence several centuries earlier your likely to see a fair proportion of the population converting and possibly pressure on states further west such as the Lithuanians and Poles. Also assuming as the OP does the Mongols still come along its likely that the Golden Horde goes Muslim even earlier than OTL and more so.

 

[The Unicorn]

True but the issue is that a Muslim state dominating that region, which I think also includes areas never in Khazer influence its going to affect things. Alternatively their going to have other influences on themselves before such a conversion which might alter things.

I don't think it will intrinsically affect things at all one way or the other. What you need to ask, is how will things develop after the Mongols leave. If christian nations take over as they did historically, then there won't be any real difference. If Moslem nations manage to take over and hold against the christian that will change things, but that's the long term change, not weather the Rus or the Bulgars won.

 

[stevep]

I don't think it will intrinsically affect things at all one way or the other. What you need to ask, is how will things develop after the Mongols leave. If christian nations take over as they did historically, then there won't be any real difference. If Moslem nations manage to take over and hold against the christian that will change things, but that's the long term change, not weather the Rus or the Bulgars won.

Yes but if much of OTL Russia and Ukriane is Muslim prior to the Mongol invasion their likely to remain that way after the Mongols disappear. A predominantly Muslin Volga and Dnieper valleys would shift the boundary westward by quite a distance - albeit that whether this population is predominantly semi-nomadic or settled would also matter.

 

[The Unicorn]

Yes but if much of OTL Russia and Ukriane is Muslim prior to the Mongol invasion their likely to remain that way after the Mongols disappear. A predominantly Muslin Volga and Dnieper valleys would shift the boundary westward by quite a distance - albeit that whether this population is predominantly semi-nomadic or settled would also matter.

True, I got the dates mixed up. What I should have said is, it depends on what happens with Constantinople and the crusades. If there are stong chirstian states nearby they'll invade when the Mongols withdraw, and forcible convert people to chrstianity. If the nearby christian countries are weak or distracted the moslem territories

 

[ATP]

I'm assuming the Bulgars still go Islamic, and go kick some ass for awhile before the Mongols kick their ass. How much can the territory we know as European 'Russia' on a different path between 922 (when the Bulgars converted to Islam) and the 1220s, when the Mongols came? Note, the Kievan Rus state only converted to Christianity in 987.

Volga Bulgars was only people who initially beaten mongols - if they were stronger,they could keep doing that.Result - muslim Russia except Nowogrod the great and orthodox Lithuania.
They would probably kick Ottomans from Byzantine territory,or,at least,made them weaker.If we have Bulgars and Ottomans fighting each other,Serbia and Moldavia could remain independent.

 

[stevep]

True, I got the dates mixed up. What I should have said is, it depends on what happens with Constantinople and the crusades. If there are stong chirstian states nearby they'll invade when the Mongols withdraw, and forcible convert people to chrstianity. If the nearby christian countries are weak or distracted the moslem territories

Think you missed a bit off the end there but presumably its that the Muslim territories survive and possibly expand?

The thing is if the Mongols become Muslim, which seems likely as it happened OTL with most of the region being Orthodox then when they decline there will be substantial Muslim successor states - more than OTL when I think they were largely centred on the lower and middle Volga. Whether their largely nomadic or settled in character they will be formidable opponents for any attempted Christian resurgence. It could be that a more powerful Poland might emerge but its unlikely to extend its power beyond the Dnieper which means a lot more territory including the core of modern Russia will probably stay Muslim I suspect.

 

[The Unicorn]

Think you missed a bit off the end there but presumably its that the Muslim territories survive and possibly expand?

No my point is, that there's going to be a bunch of fighting before the mongols show up, which changes who they'll face when they do, and the various christian nations may focus on the heretic moslems in Europe rather than fighting for the holly land.

All this will mean things will be very different by the time the mongols show up.

 

[ATP]

I just undarstandt something.Moscov become powerhouse taking taxes for mongols,beaten them and conqered other russian and later many other nation in the name of Orthodox church.

But Volga bulgars would be muslim,so local christian would fight them more then Moscow.Which mean,that Lithuania could become orhodox and eventually take over most of russian lands.
No union with Poland here.

 

[stevep]

No my point is, that there's going to be a bunch of fighting before the mongols show up, which changes who they'll face when they do, and the various christian nations may focus on the heretic moslems in Europe rather than fighting for the holly land.

All this will mean things will be very different by the time the mongols show up.

OK thanks for explaining. I suspect that most of the Christian - especially Catholic - nations will be more interested in fighting for the Holy Land simply because it is the holy land. Plus that's the way the Papacy is likely to push crusades. You could get an earlier Polish expansion eastwards but their going to have a tough fight, especially having to look over the shoulder at the HRE and ditto with the Scandinavians assuming they still go Catholic. The Orthodox are going to be more concerned about the issue but if Byzantium has its decline and isn't able to avoid the OTL 11thC Turkish disaster their definitely going to be too weak and distracted to do much.

Things will be different by the time the Mongols turn up - assuming they do - but the dominant power on the western steppes being Muslim Bulgars rather than Jewish Khazers then displayed by Orthodox Rus is likely to mean that Islam is more heavily established in OTL Russia than before the Mongols arrive. Unless we assume the crisis was to throw up some sort of Orthodox or Polish Alexander or Napoleon.

 

[The Unicorn]

OK thanks for explaining. I suspect that most of the Christian - especially Catholic - nations will be more interested in fighting for the Holy Land simply because it is the holy land.

Yah...no.
Even historically, most people who were part of the crusades were looking to get rich. Having acceptable targets nearby would get more people to attack the nearby targets (at least initially) and may mean the Byzantine empire doesn't get attacked.

Unless we assume the crisis was to throw up some sort of Orthodox or Polish Alexander or Napoleon.

Or simply that the different branches of Christianity unified against the moslems rather than fighting each other.

 

[ATP]

OK thanks for explaining. I suspect that most of the Christian - especially Catholic - nations will be more interested in fighting for the Holy Land simply because it is the holy land. Plus that's the way the Papacy is likely to push crusades. You could get an earlier Polish expansion eastwards but their going to have a tough fight, especially having to look over the shoulder at the HRE and ditto with the Scandinavians assuming they still go Catholic. The Orthodox are going to be more concerned about the issue but if Byzantium has its decline and isn't able to avoid the OTL 11thC Turkish disaster their definitely going to be too weak and distracted to do much.

Things will be different by the time the Mongols turn up - assuming they do - but the dominant power on the western steppes being Muslim Bulgars rather than Jewish Khazers then displayed by Orthodox Rus is likely to mean that Islam is more heavily established in OTL Russia than before the Mongols arrive. Unless we assume the crisis was to throw up some sort of Orthodox or Polish Alexander or Napoleon.

If russian would be beaten by Bulgars,then Lithuania option would be more popular with them - in OTL they almost become orthodox,and most of their subjects was orthodox.
Which mean no polish expansion,becouse stronger Lithuania would not unite wit us.
P.S Russians do not take islam when they could in OTL becouse it forbid drinking,so no more muslims there.

 

[stevep]

Yah...no.
Even historically, most people who were part of the crusades were looking to get rich. Having acceptable targets nearby would get more people to attack the nearby targets (at least initially) and may mean the Byzantine empire doesn't get attacked.

Or simply that the different branches of Christianity unified against the moslems rather than fighting each other.

And which is richer, the holy lands or Byzantium or the Dnieper valley? Plus for most of western Europe its easier to go east by sea than marching overland through Germany and Poland.

Unfortunately in such organisation heretics are generally viewed as more heinous than infidels. This occurs in many faith based systems which assume they have a monopoly of the truth from older ones like the Abrahamic faiths to more recent ones such as communism.

ATP does raise a point that the restrictions on alcohol use is likely to make conversion to Islam less popular, although places like Egypt were among the earliest brewers in world history. Plus I have seen it said that in some areas Muslim leaders claimed the prohibition was against wine and hence alternatives such as beers and spirits were not banned. - Which if adopted here could however lead to later internal conflicts and possibly jihads called against such people by 'pure' Muslims.

Another thing I have seen suggested was that the boundaries of large scale Islamic conversion match those where pig use becomes practical/impractical so the prohibition on pork could be more fundamental. Although how accurate this is I don't know as were some areas that became predominantly Muslim, such as Sicily and Iberia and later being reclaimed by Christianity suitable for pigs or not. Similarly are areas long under Muslim rule unsuitable for pigs without that religious issue I would suspect not as the classical Jews wouldn't have had such a prohibition against keeping pigs and they never left the ME in the period that came into being.

 

[ATP]

i accidentally discovered,that King of Hungary Bela 4 send envoys there in 1236,but no to Bulgars - he wanted to contact hungarian tribes living near them.
They existed,but not for long - mongols genocided them almost to the last child,just like bulgars living there.
And later come to Hungary demanding them to join mongol empire,becouse they were steppe people,too.

But - if Bulgar hold,those hungarian tribes would survive,too.And they would be allies of both Bulgars and Hungary.
So - muslim Bulgar state conqering Russia,and allied with hungarian tribes and Hungary after 1240 - how would it change history?

 

[ATP]

Hungarian tribe with powerfull state on steppe was named Baszkurdowie.They lived mostly near river Tuna.And were genocided before attack on Hungary.
By the way,there were at least 2 smaller steppe states,both genocided,too.Not Hungarian or Bulgars,althought