AHC: Qing thrown out of China between 1645 and 1700

[raharris1973]

Here's the challenge: Have the Qing Dynasty, the Manchus, at least thrown out of China proper, or possibly completely destroyed, sometime after their victory at Shanhai Pass, seizure of Beijing, conquest of at least northern China, and the death of Shun Emperor Li Zicheng in 1645, but still *before* 1700.

The regime left in China can be of your choosing- It can be a neo-Ming pretender, it could be one of the rebelling Three Feudatories like Wu Sangui, it could be the Sichuan western King Zhang Xiangzhong, it could be the de facto rulers or puppets of the Tungning Kingdom of Fujian and later Taiwan (Koxinga & son).

Bonus points if there's a new solid Han-led regime by 1700.

Even more bonus points if one way or another, from a warlord period, the Tungning group emerges on top by 1700.

 

[ATP]

Here's the challenge: Have the Qing Dynasty, the Manchus, at least thrown out of China proper, or possibly completely destroyed, sometime after their victory at Shanhai Pass, seizure of Beijing, conquest of at least northern China, and the death of Shun Emperor Li Zicheng in 1645, but still *before* 1700.

The regime left in China can be of your choosing- It can be a neo-Ming pretender, it could be one of the rebelling Three Feudatories like Wu Sangui, it could be the Sichuan western King Zhang Xiangzhong, it could be the de facto rulers or puppets of the Tungning Kingdom of Fujian and later Taiwan (Koxinga & son).

Bonus points if there's a new solid Han-led regime by 1700.

Even more bonus points if one way or another, from a warlord period, the Tungning group emerges on top by 1700.

Not impossible,Ming fought till 1662.They even send Michał Boym,polish jesuit and chineese cyvil servant,to Europe for help.
Unfortunatelly,he was hold 3 years in Loreto for some internal church reasons/other jesuits or not - i do not knew - they hated him becouse he supported chineese customs/,and finally send back with almost nothing.He died trying get to Ming in 1659 from some disease.

But assume that he is send to China at once with soldiers and weapons - that could change things.

 

[raharris1973]

Not impossible,Ming fought till 1662.They even send Michał Boym,polish jesuit and chineese cyvil servant,to Europe for help.
Unfortunatelly,he was hold 3 years in Loreto for some internal church reasons/other jesuits or not - i do not knew - they hated him becouse he supported chineese customs/,and finally send back with almost nothing.He died trying get to Ming in 1659 from some disease.

But assume that he is send to China at once with soldiers and weapons - that could change things.

Thanks for introducing me to this guy. I looked him up. I could imagine him figuring in to an altered scenario.

 

[ATP]

Thanks for introducing me to this guy. I looked him up. I could imagine him figuring in to an altered scenario.

Before keeping him in Loreto by church,he was delayed by portugees becouse they fear about their merchants fate.
If we remove both,help could come in 1655.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Here's the challenge: Have the Qing Dynasty, the Manchus, at least thrown out of China proper, or possibly completely destroyed, sometime after their victory at Shanhai Pass, seizure of Beijing, conquest of at least northern China, and the death of Shun Emperor Li Zicheng in 1645, but still *before* 1700.

The regime left in China can be of your choosing- It can be a neo-Ming pretender, it could be one of the rebelling Three Feudatories like Wu Sangui, it could be the Sichuan western King Zhang Xiangzhong, it could be the de facto rulers or puppets of the Tungning Kingdom of Fujian and later Taiwan (Koxinga & son).

Bonus points if there's a new solid Han-led regime by 1700.

Even more bonus points if one way or another, from a warlord period, the Tungning group emerges on top by 1700.

Koxinga was heavily engaged in fighting against the Dutch during the 1660s, culminating in the victory over the Dutch at Fort Zeelandia in 1662.

On the other side of the world, the British and the Dutch were fighting as well. From 1664 to 1667 there was the 2nd Anglo Dutch War. British were losing the war and Koxinga's support on the far side of the world could mean the end of Dutch trading interests in the Pacific, given how powerful their war fleets were at the time. Many Ming junks had more guns than even the best European ships at the time and they were fitted with watertight compartments, allowing them to soak up damage.

It could be very possible for the Ming to offer the British trading rights and a few trading posts in exchange for military support against the Qing and the Dutch.

If Koxinga was smart, he'd offer British privateers a safe port (and supplies) if they were willing to pull a Drake and sail all the way to Taiwan to help them.

 

[raharris1973]

But guys, let's not get tooo carried away with the difference that European mercenaries and pirates on their own would likely make on the scale of the Chinese struggle. I would think that multiple PoDs, something internal that strengthens a Chinese faction, or weakens the Qing at a crucial time, would be essential too, although Europeans adventurers could certainly come along for the ride and try to profit from the situation.

 

[raharris1973]

Koxinga was heavily engaged in fighting against the Dutch during the 1660s, culminating in the victory over the Dutch at Fort Zeelandia in 1662.

On the other side of the world, the British and the Dutch were fighting as well. From 1664 to 1667 there was the 2nd Anglo Dutch War. British were losing the war and Koxinga's support on the far side of the world could mean the end of Dutch trading interests in the Pacific, given how powerful their war fleets were at the time. Many Ming junks had more guns than even the best European ships at the time and they were fitted with watertight compartments, allowing them to soak up damage.

It could be very possible for the Ming to offer the British trading rights and a few trading posts in exchange for military support against the Qing and the Dutch.

If Koxinga was smart, he'd offer British privateers a safe port (and supplies) if they were willing to pull a Drake and sail all the way to Taiwan to help them.

Neat idea - I guess the Mings could harass Dutch ships in the South China Sea and burn Batavia in Java and Deshima in Japan? What could England/Britain do for the Mings in return? In the 1660s maybe not so much, but, maybe some mercenary pirates serve with them in the 1670s and 1680s. Maybe they are able to buy some ships and cannon and that allows them to intervene in the revolt of the three feudatories in 1673?

 

[raharris1973]

I wonder if another good PoD might just be Wu Sangui preparing and launching his revolt some few years earlier than the historic "Revolt of the Three Feudatories" in 1673. Although Wu and his two co-conspirators chose to revolt in 1673, they tested the waters as early as 1667. Maybe their chances against the Qing regime would have been better earlier.