AHC/PC: Successful Neapolitan and/or Sicilian independence revolt from the Kingdom of Italy, post-1865

Could Naples and/or Sicily plausibly secede and become independent from the KoI post-1865?

  • Yes, Naples and Sicily both could

    Votes: 3 75.0%
  • Yes, but only Sicily

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, neither could

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4

raharris1973

Well-known member
That's the challenge. The more I hear about Italian history, the more it sounds like the development differential between north and south Italy isn't as old as I once thought and that much of southern Italy/Sicily's relative poverty, and troubled relationship with official law and order, can be more be traced to more recent roots since the founding of the Kingdom of Italy by Piedmontese who bent the structures of the Kingdom to serve their interests first.

Resentment, disorder, and brigandage were apparently common in southern Italy in the early decades of the Kingdom, what internal or external circumstances, if any, could create an opportunity for the ex-Kingdom of Naples/Two Sicilies, or just the island of Sicily, to declare independence, win it, and keep it? What happens to European politics and the fractions of Italy afterward?
 
Needs outside intervention to succeed, just like the ARW.
Best bet - in 1870 A-H comes for a rematch for 1866.
Pretext - save the Papal State. Real reason - restore and preserve a dagger at Italy's back.
Seeing the Two Sicilies post-1815 track record with Siciily IMO anybody with a two grey cells to rub together would had broken up the resurrected state into separate realms of Napoli and Sicily.
Britain - which made the 1859 revolt succeed, remember? - might be happier ...
 
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Brits decide independent vassal Sicily would be good for their control of Mediterran?
Yes.
Bandits Anti-Savoyard Freedom Fighters hurt British business on the island, their owners go and complain to their Public School buddies now running the UK, and London decides that their cronies' British National Interests are better served by a vassal state than a united Italy.

BTW - I imagine that somebody in London in 1940 had wished that eighty years previously the Gov't had let the Napolitan navy sink Garibaldi and his thugs. BTW - Britain forcing Naples to spin off Sicily (it had been a separate kingdom prior to 1815!) could had happened a several points between 1815 and 1859. But I digress, sorry!
 
Needs outside intervention to succeed, just like the ARW.
Best bet - in 1870 A-H comes for a rematch for 1866.
Pretext - save the Papal State. Real reason - restore and preserve a dagger at Italy's back.
Seeing the Two Sicilies post-1815 track record with Siciily IMO anybody with a two grey cells to rub together would had broken up the resurrected state into separate realms of Napoli and Sicily.
Britain - which made the 1859 revolt succeed, remember? - might be happier ...

going with the Austrian option in 1870, would the:

1. Hungarians allow Vienna to do this?
2. If they do, would Austria win about as quickly as Prussia beats France?
3. Russia and Romania and Serbia and the Ottomans sit it out I assume.
4. Can Austria afford this?

presuming Austrian victory, what terms do the Austrians impose:

1) just independence for Naples/Mezzogiorno and for Sicily? And continued independence for the Papal state in Roma/Lazio under Austrian and Neapolitan protection?

2) all of #1, plus the restoration of lost Papal States lands from 1859-1860 (Umbria, romagna, pentapolis, the marche) to link them to Ravenna and the Adriatic?

3) all of #2 plus restoration of Veneto to Austria, for territorial continuity between Austria and its anti Kingdom of Italy clients?

4) all of #3 plus restoration of Milan-Lombardy to Austria, for revenge, leaving KoI just northwest Italy, in effect?
 
1. Hungarians allow Vienna to do this?
Well ... this might involve some persuasion/beatings in the parking lot :)
2. If they do, would Austria win about as quickly as Prussia beats France?
Yes. The Italian army is as bad/worse than the Austrian. But Austrian steamroller and all that ...
Also, we know that the 3rd Republic turned out to be "le Energizer Bunni" - it just kept on going and going ...
3. Russia and Romania and Serbia and the Ottomans sit it out I assume.
Yes. They have no potatos in this fire.
4. Can Austria afford this?
Nothing wrong with a short victorious war and the vanquished enemy paying an idemnity to cover the costs :)
Seriously - it should. I think?

As to outcome of said short victorious war - I think that FJ would be happy with #1. This alone improves A-H's strategic position by a large margin. Maybe #1+ Veneto and Friuli.
IMO it had dawned on Vienna that keeping Milan is no longer an option.

My wet dream would be #1 with Savoyards banished to Sardinia (the island), the Piemont going to a cadet branch/somebody, Parma/Modena/Tuscana/Republic of Genoa etc. reestablished, and a KoI in 1859+Veneto borders (minus Sardinia the Island Kingdom) set up as a federation of monarchies like the Norddeutscherbund, with the dude in Milan being Re d'Italia&Duce Supremo.

But that'd need an SI, I guess :p
 
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As to outcome of said short victorious war - I think that FJ would be happy with #1. This alone improves A-H's strategic position by a large margin. Maybe #1+ Veneto and Friuli.

On Veneto and Friuli - The natural instinct for Austria would be to resume direct rule as in the pre-1866 days. Would F-J do that? How much would the Hungarians be bothered?

Might a Venetian independent buffer state, a Duchy, Princedom, Kingdom, Serene Republic, be an alternative. Would such a thing have local support and be counted on to not just "give itself" back to the Kingdom of Italy at the first opportunity? Veneto-Friuli had a proud local history and tradition, but I have never heard of it having the bitter experiences of the Mezzogiorno and Sicily.
 
Might a Venetian independent buffer state, a Duchy, Princedom, Kingdom, Serene Republic, be an alternative.
IMO one of the smarter things to do.
But this FJ we are dealing with ...

How much would the Hungarians be bothered?
As this is a relatively small territory, the Hungarian magnates have fond memories of debauchery in Venice, this is not the Balkans, hence they may take a "not my monkeys, not my circus" attitude and shrug.

Might a Venetian independent buffer state, a Duchy, Princedom, Kingdom, Serene Republic, be an alternative. Would such a thing have local support and be counted on to not just "give itself" back to the Kingdom of Italy at the first opportunity?
IMO everything depends on how "independence" is handled and policies later.
Can work, or you can have Friulans and Venetians plotting to be anschlussed ...

Veneto-Friuli had a proud local history and tradition, but I have never heard of it having the bitter experiences of the Mezzogiorno and Sicily.
They never rebelled hence never suffered. Also, I suspect that they were lumped together with the Milanese/Lombards and thus part of the ruling elite.
Also, Venice did not wish to suffer the fate of its frenemy Genoa, which was subject to shelling for several days by the Authorities.
This BTW shows the power of propaganda and history is written by the victors - the Savoyard cunt who shelled a defenceless city is a Hero of Italian unification, while the Napolitan cunt who did the same is known to this day as "Re Bomba" and derided as an inbred twit.
 
That's the challenge. The more I hear about Italian history, the more it sounds like the development differential between north and south Italy isn't as old as I once thought and that much of southern Italy/Sicily's relative poverty, and troubled relationship with official law and order, can be more be traced to more recent roots since the founding of the Kingdom of Italy by Piedmontese who bent the structures of the Kingdom to serve their interests first.

Resentment, disorder, and brigandage were apparently common in southern Italy in the early decades of the Kingdom, what internal or external circumstances, if any, could create an opportunity for the ex-Kingdom of Naples/Two Sicilies, or just the island of Sicily, to declare independence, win it, and keep it? What happens to European politics and the fractions of Italy afterward?

I'll get to the question itself in a second, but one thing to note is that the main reason for this is that prior to the 1500s, all of Europe was pretty much an intellectual and technological backwater. That changed starting with the Renaissance (which had its heart in northern Italy) and then the Industrial Revolution kicked off, which made the disparities even more pronounced.

Northern Italy consisted primarily of independent states much closer to the action, bordering France and Germany (the region, I mean). Southern Italy wasn't. Combining the fact that with the rise of the Renaissance and the Age of Exploration and colonialism, the Mediterranean went from being the center of the Western world (relatively speaking) to being on the periphery. And the Papal States were not exactly known for economic/industrial progress (it wasn't until the revolutions of 1848 that things *started* to change), so it was partly responsible for progress not filtering down to the Mezzogiorno.

The other problem was that the region had been under the control of the Spanish (who were themselves out of the loop on progress, and also far more interested in exploiting the resources of the New World). So it was a whole host of factors leading to them getting the short end of the stick. Since the Med was a dead end in maritime terms until the 1880s (and by this time Italy was far more interested in investing in its heartland), they got and to some degree are still getting the short end of the stick in terms of development.

Anyway...

In order for them to remain viable, the Papal States would need to exist as a buffer so nobody (*cough* Austria *cough*) tries to do an invasion. While the two of them being unified (as the OG Kingdom of Sicily was under the Normans) would give them more resources to work with, it also would likely worry the British, since a unified Sicily would need a navy at least capable of controlling the Strait of Messina and being able to exert local control. Even a friendly Sicily would be a concern for the British, given that they're astride the quickest route to India.

Now, assuming the British DO give their approval (even tacitly) to keeping an independent Sicily, that gives the latter a boost as an entrepot (since with Suez trade between Western Europe and Asia is once again going mainly through the Med), and they can industrialize, but at the same time I'd be willing to bet that the Mezzogiorno lags behind Sicily proper given that the former is an island and so can do the Wooden Wall bit to protect itself.

So, yes, *in theory* it could work, but it relies on both the British being willing to cut Sicily some slack (not a given when it comes to naval issues) and the Austrians not being idiots, which as @Buba rightly notes means relying on Franz Josef not being his inbred dumbass self...so in all honesty it's probably never going to work.

My wet dream would be #1 with Savoyards banished to Sardinia (the island), the Piemont going to a cadet branch/somebody, Parma/Modena/Tuscana/Republic of Genoa etc. reestablished, and a KoI in 1859+Veneto borders (minus Sardinia the Island Kingdom) set up as a federation of monarchies like the Norddeutscherbund, with the dude in Milan being Re d'Italia&Duce Supremo.

But that'd need an SI, I guess :p

I would definitely read that, although I'd cut the Savoyards *some* slack and let them hold onto Sardinia. If Genoa and the others are independent there's fuck all they can really do without having everyone else giving them The Look if they get a visit from the Good Idea Fairy.

Might a Venetian independent buffer state, a Duchy, Princedom, Kingdom, Serene Republic, be an alternative. Would such a thing have local support and be counted on to not just "give itself" back to the Kingdom of Italy at the first opportunity? Veneto-Friuli had a proud local history and tradition, but I have never heard of it having the bitter experiences of the Mezzogiorno and Sicily.

It's been a while but IIRC the problem was that, being right next to the Austrian heartland, if they tried stepping out of line (and I'm pretty sure there were a couple local rebellions) the empire could roll in to suppress any uprisings fairly easily. It took Prussia smacking FJ around like the cretin he was to convince the latter to let go of Lombardy, the Veneto, and Friuli.

Even if there isn't a unified Italy in this timeline, it certainly would be to Prussia's benefit to pry the region away from Austria. And it may be that Lombardy and the Veneto split apart as well, with independence guaranteed by treaty. Granted Venice would still be screwed on account of having pretty much nothing but being a tourist attraction at this point going for it (though package tours DID exist at this point in time). Be interesting to see how things would play out.

Edited for formatting. This fucking phone...
 
I would definitely read that, although I'd cut the Savoyards *some* slack and let them hold onto Sardinia.
Sorry for not making that point clear.
I envision there being a Regno di Sardegna under Casa Savoia which would not be part of an united Italian monarchy.

BTW - could the Terra Ferme (Veneto) be resurrected as the Margraviate of Verona, with the city of Venice itself being separate, a "free city" and a Monaco/Las Vegas writ large?
 
Sorry for not making that point clear.
I envision there being a Regno di Sardegna under Casa Savoia which would not be part of an united Italian monarchy.

BTW - could the Terra Ferme (Veneto) be resurrected as the Margraviate of Verona, with the city of Venice itself being separate, a "free city" and a Monaco/Las Vegas writ large?

I think it's more likely the Veneto is roughly analogous to Luxembourg, with Venice as the capital. As a city-state I don't see it prospering on its own; Monaco was shaping itself as a resort/gambling destination by the early 1860s and has a rail link to France and is on the Riviera.

Theoretically they might set themselves up as another tax haven and maybe some shipbuilding/fishing. Maybe some industrial capacity and high-end goods production as well (Venice does after all have a history in that regard), but as a commercial port, expect it to be an also-ran versus Trieste, unless there's enough of a boom within the Terra Firma. Which there might be, who knows.
 
Supposing we go with Buba's PoD of 1870, and Austria-Hungary's opportunistic war to "Save the Pope" cough cough "show it could still throw a &h!tty little country against the wall" and get is pride back works, and the results are at least:

  • Preservation of Papal Lazio
  • Establishment of an independent Sicilian state
  • Establishment of an independent Neapolitan Mezzogiorno state
By no later than 1871.

This will have an *enormous* influence down the line, not only locally, and in European and colonial politics, but also for trans-Atlantic migration and Italian America, and all cultural influences thereof.

I know what I'm talking about, I grew up in New Jersey! Sicily and southern Italy was the overwhelming source of Italian migration to North America (South America and Australia *might* be different), a separate national political identity for Sicily and Naples and potentially greater and better economic development may significantly reduce that migration, or change its character, destination, or the professional profile or reputation of the immigrants.

Your thoughts?
 
Supposing we go with Buba's PoD of 1870, and Austria-Hungary's opportunistic war to "Save the Pope" cough cough "show it could still throw a &h!tty little country against the wall" and get is pride back works, and the results are at least:

  • Preservation of Papal Lazio
  • Establishment of an independent Sicilian state
  • Establishment of an independent Neapolitan Mezzogiorno state
By no later than 1871.

This will have an *enormous* influence down the line, not only locally, and in European and colonial politics, but also for trans-Atlantic migration and Italian America, and all cultural influences thereof.

I know what I'm talking about, I grew up in New Jersey! Sicily and southern Italy was the overwhelming source of Italian migration to North America (South America and Australia *might* be different), a separate national political identity for Sicily and Naples and potentially greater and better economic development may significantly reduce that migration, or change its character, destination, or the professional profile or reputation of the immigrants.

Your thoughts?

Given how utterly incompetent the Austrian military was (they didn't even have a standardized language), I'm doubtful whether they could actually pull that off that fast. The chief of staff wasn't Hotzendorf levels of stupid, but the military had no standardization. Remember, they picked the fight with Serbia to prove they could still conquer a "shitty little country" as you said, but the Serbs managed to beat them off for like two years.

Still, it's possible I suppose. Anyway...I don't think it'll make too much of a difference in terms of immigration. America in the 19th century is still very much the place to go and try to strike it rich, and whether it's one Italy or eight, I would expect a lot of them to up stakes and move. Sicily might be able to industrialize somewhat but Naples isn't in as good a position.
 
Sicily and southern Italy was the overwhelming source of Italian migration to North America (South America and Australia *might* be different)

Numbers for Brazil are as follows(taken from Wikipedia in Portuguese):

Região de OrigemNúmero de ImigrantesRegião de OrigemNúmero de Imigrantes
Imigração italiana para o Brasil (1876-1920)[54]
Vêneto365 710Sicília44 390
Campânia166 080Piemonte40 336
Calábria113 155Apúlia34 833
Lombardia105 973Marcas25 074
Abruzos-Molise93 020Lácio15 982
Toscana81 056Úmbria11 818
Emília-Romanha59 877Ligúria9 328
Basilicata52 888Sardenha6 113
Total : 1 243 633

So, northern Italians contributed more to immigration, by about 65% to 35%, if my cursory glance is right.
 
Anyway...I don't think it'll make too much of a difference in terms of immigration. America in the 19th century is still very much the place to go and try to strike it rich, and whether it's one Italy or eight, I would expect a lot of them to up stakes and move. Sicily might be able to industrialize somewhat but Naples isn't in as good a position.

Maybe not much difference in raw numbers. America had it's attractions. (Although fully 1/3 of Italian immigrant to the USA, and possibly some similar shares from some other European countries, repatriated back to the old country). However, if the countries are more industrial or developed, they may come with more money or education. As for Naples, I think that sadly, Naples may have a big divide between a more prosperous/developed city of Naples and immediate neighborhood, and a comparatively neglected/exploited set of rural, peripheral provinces.
 
As to Italian emigration - the way I understand things and using Portugal or Germany as an analogy, the North sent emigrants to South America because they could afford the longer journey. The piss poor Sicilians and Napolitans could only afford a ticket to the US.
In Germany poor Germans from the west emigrated abroad, the poor Germans from the east emigrated to the Rhur.

As @raharris1973 noted, there will be enormous outflow from Italy. But look at more affluent Germany - same thing happened there.

Both Naples (the country) and Siciliy will probably be richer due to to simple fact of having local polities in charge, focused on their wellbeing. And not a disinterested North.

As to aftereffects - would there be an Italo-Ottoman war? Which - I believe - was in (large) part an inspiration for the dogpile of 1912?
With the Italian States being weaker - would there be a spate between any of them and France of Tunis? Making OTL Italy open to Central Powers membership?
 
Maybe not much difference in raw numbers. America had it's attractions. (Although fully 1/3 of Italian immigrant to the USA, and possibly some similar shares from some other European countries, repatriated back to the old country). However, if the countries are more industrial or developed, they may come with more money or education. As for Naples, I think that sadly, Naples may have a big divide between a more prosperous/developed city of Naples and immediate neighborhood, and a comparatively neglected/exploited set of rural, peripheral provinces.

On that last point I have read that many Italians - and other migrants - intended to go home at some stage but that the changing of the US nationalization laws after WWI basically forced them to return home then or accept US citizenship and many, unwilling to leave at that point took the latter option. Suspect many would have done so sooner or later anyway - after all if your spent a decade or more in the country and started raising children its going to start feeling like home.

Mind you with S Italy a lot would depend on how it develops here. If its a bit richer and possibly more important fairer in terms of laws and economic rights for poorer people its more likely to both keep people and draw back those who work overseas for a while.
 
As to Italian emigration - the way I understand things and using Portugal or Germany as an analogy, the North sent emigrants to South America because they could afford the longer journey. The piss poor Sicilians and Napolitans could only afford a ticket to the US.
In Germany poor Germans from the west emigrated abroad, the poor Germans from the east emigrated to the Rhur.

As @raharris1973 noted, there will be enormous outflow from Italy. But look at more affluent Germany - same thing happened there.

Both Naples (the country) and Siciliy will probably be richer due to to simple fact of having local polities in charge, focused on their wellbeing. And not a disinterested North.

As to aftereffects - would there be an Italo-Ottoman war? Which - I believe - was in (large) part an inspiration for the dogpile of 1912?
With the Italian States being weaker - would there be a spate between any of them and France of Tunis? Making OTL Italy open to Central Powers membership?

If Italy is divided still then that's going to have huge butterflies. Regardless of what happens to Rome a Naples [kingdom of] and Sicily are going to deny the northern state both a lot of manpower but also facilities in the south such as ports which allow them to project power over neighbouring regions. Possibly N Italy/Savoy whatever we call it will be more concerned with France and Austria, although not powerful enough on its own to fight either and also projecting interests into Dalmatia and areas further south, which would put them in conflict with Austria and Serbia at least. If no presence in N Africa or E Africa that's going to affect future events there.

One thing that came to mind is that at one stage the bulk of the Europeans in Tunisia and chunks of Algeria were Italians rather than French IIRC. If those came mainly from the south that could mean, since even a combined Two Sicilies is not going to be a serious threat to France, that the latter could have friendly relations with the latter and encourage more Italians to settle in parts of French N Africa. - Friendship between those two especially with France securing Tunisia is going to cause some tension with Britain I suspect as its threatening a French lock on the western Med.

I suspect some sort of Balkan war is likely at some point unless the Ottomans really get reforms. Possibly a Young Turk movement that stays more inclusive rather than degenerating into a Turkish arch-nationalist group or a powerful Sultan actually goes for reform. How it would fare and whether other countries would be drawn in militarily if the OTL 1st Balkan War still occurs would be an issue however.
 
Interesting point about possibly larger - or simply not red flag rising due to "dispersed origin" - "Italian" immigration to FNA.

Also - there being several Italian states still - could there be an impact on perceptions of "Italian" immigrants in e.g. the USA. There would be Italians, Napolitans and Sicilians, each perceived as distinct?

As to Britain being worried about France and Italian states colluding to "close the Med" (never underestimate British paranoia!), the profusion of Italian polities is probably beneficial to the Empire's interests. The UK can now woo any of the three (?) sitting astride the narrows between the western and eastern Med - Sardinia, Sicily and Napoli.
 
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