AHC: a centralized, absolutist Polish-Lithuanian state/empire

[raharris1973]

If one wanted to achieve Polish-Lithuanian state by the dawn of the 18th century that was absolutist in a way comparable any of the forms in absolutism in other European countries of the time – for example, the French Bourbon model, or Spanish Habsburg, the Romanov, or Hohenzollern Brandenburger models, how far back in Polish and Lithuanian history would you need to start radically altering the political culture?

Secondary obvious what-if - If you wanted to keep a Polish parliamentarism, but have it be functional in supporting a national interest as England's was, and representative of cities, burghers, and the middle-class, in a society of greater literacy, and not just representative of nobles and landed magnates, how far back in Polish and Lithuanian history would you need to start radically altering the political culture?

 

[Buba]

1
Those XVIIIthe century absolutisms grew out of XVIIthe supression of great nobles and/or estates and their power and medieval freedoms.
I see a possibility for this in the PLC if Władysław IV or Jan II Kazimierz get brain transplants. The szlachta was not happy with the magnates and was supportive of the Monarchy. Yet JIIK was a moron writ large ...

2
Either Kazimierz IV or the idiot Jan Olbracht. Especially the latter - he caved in to the magnates' and szlachta's demands.

 

[ATP]

If one wanted to achieve Polish-Lithuanian state by the dawn of the 18th century that was absolutist in a way comparable any of the forms in absolutism in other European countries of the time – for example, the French Bourbon model, or Spanish Habsburg, the Romanov, or Hohenzollern Brandenburger models, how far back in Polish and Lithuanian history would you need to start radically altering the political culture?

Secondary obvious what-if - If you wanted to keep a Polish parliamentarism, but have it be functional in supporting a national interest as England's was, and representative of cities, burghers, and the middle-class, in a society of greater literacy, and not just representative of nobles and landed magnates, how far back in Polish and Lithuanian history would you need to start radically altering the political culture?

1.Władysław Jagiełło have son with Jadviga - stronger claims to throne,no need to buy gentry support.
Not welcoming jews,which help destroy cities in PLC.
Not agree to turn peasants into serfs.
Later,Kings with support of cities,gentry and free peasants could destroy magnates power.And later take freedom of others and become absolute monarchs.

So,you need to start with preventing death of King/Queen Jadwiga,at least till she born healthy son.
And later keep jews out,and magnates small.

 

[Buba]

1.Władysław Jagiełło have son with Jadviga - stronger claims to throne,no need to buy gentry support.

I suspect that by gentry you mean szlachta*. At this point the knights/szlachta are political nothings. They will become relevant only in 1454.
It is the magnates/możni/lords/nobility who matter.

* - societal and legal differences between PLC area and Western Europe make terminology a minefield ...

Not welcoming jews,which help destroy cities in PLC.

If no Jews then Polish landowning political class would call in Armenians/Germans/Turks/whoever to help them destroy cities.

Not agree to turn peasants into serfs.

Existence of serfdom did not prevent German States (Prussia, Austria, etc.) or Muscovy from going absolutist.

Later,Kings with support of cities,gentry and free peasants could destroy magnates power.And later take freedom of others and become absolute monarchs.

Every little bit helps
But it takes strong willed, intelligent, ruthless rulers ...
Prevent Jadwiga's mariage to Jogaila - an expression of power of Little Polish lords - and with Wilhelm as King Consort (sounds odd, eh?, ) Poland embarks on the Long March (250 years) towards absolutism 💋 🤗

 

[ATP]

I suspect that by gentry you mean szlachta*. At this point the knights/szlachta are political nothings. They will become relevant only in 1454.
It is the magnates/możni/lords/nobility who matter.

* - societal and legal differences between PLC area and Western Europe make terminology a minefield ...

If no Jews then Polish landowning political class would call in Armenians/Germans/Turks/whoever to help them destroy cities.

Existence of serfdom did not prevent German States (Prussia, Austria, etc.) or Muscovy from going absolutist.

Every little bit helps
But it takes strong willed, intelligent, ruthless rulers ...
Prevent Jadwiga's mariage to Jogaila - an expression of power of Little Polish lords - and with Wilhelm as King Consort (sounds odd, eh?, ) Poland embarks on the Long March (250 years) towards absolutism 💋 🤗

1.Yes,szlachta.And thanks to their opinions peasants start loosing their rights after 1410.
2.Germans and armenians becomed poles eventually,and do not destroy economy.Jews formed gettos ,and ,thanks to making many go-between,ruined economy.Not mention,they never seek political powers.
Absolute monarchs,before become absolute,need cities with strong political powers.
Later,they would take it,of course.
3.Fair point - but they belonged ot other civilization then we,poles.
4.Maybe,but we risk being destroyed by germans then.So,Jagiełło with sons from Jadwiga would do better.

 

[Agent23]

Stopping serfdom in Poland, which was quite rampant in Europe, might be a bit hard.

1
Those XVIIIthe century absolutisms grew out of XVIIthe supression of great nobles and/or estates and their power and medieval freedoms.
I see a possibility for this in the PLC if Władysław IV or Jan II Kazimierz get brain transplants. The szlachta was not happy with the

Is that King John II Casimir ?

I thought he was mostly sabotaged in his reforms and did moderately well, given the circumstances?

 

[Buba]

Is that King John II Casimir ?

Yes.

I thought he was mostly sabotaged in his reforms and did moderately well, given the circumstances?

Some of the reforms were suggested by the Royal camp, some were suggested by the szlachta, and all were killed by how moronicaly he tried to pass them through the Sejm (Zabor? Skupshtina?).
He was a below average king - he was elected because he was a "dove" versus the Chmielnicki Rebellion unlike his brother Fryderyk. Besides the different stance on the Rebellion Fryderyk - an acting bishop - was perceived as "counterreformation happy" and was vetoed by non-Catholic Lithuanian magnates.
The widescale treason of the szlachta and magnates in 1655 clearly shows how popular and successful he was.
And in spite of the shrill screams of absolutum dominium by the biased and the uneducated, the post 1660 JIIK reforms were about as absolutist as the USA Constitution. But still would had been a step forward towards the absolutism stipulated in the OP. Yet getting them passed wuld had required a different man at the helm ...

 

[Agent23]

Some of the reforms were suggested by the Royal camp, some were suggested by the szlachta, and all were killed by how moronicaly he tried to pass them through the Sejm (Zabor? Skupshtina?).

Народно Събрание, or just Събрание.
Sabor is a village gsthering the type you do on the patron saint'd feast day or for other such occasion.
Skupshria, that is Serb for the same type of parliamentary assembly.

 

[ATP]

Stopping serfdom in Poland, which was quite rampant in Europe, might be a bit hard.


Is that King John II Casimir ?

I thought he was mostly sabotaged in his reforms and did moderately well, given the circumstances?

1.Not if it never started.In 1410 we still had free farmers - to the point when in Grunwald battle fought only by calvary most of polish combatants were rich farmers,not gentry.

2.Yes,him.After his coming back during Swedish invasion gentry agreed to tax for military - but he refused,wanting vivente rege,too.Then szlachta say no.
Vivente rege - mean choosing next King when old still live.