Abortion: When is a fetus a human?

[Abhorsen]

So my opinion on when a fetus becomes a separate human life is at approximately 8 weeks after conception, specifically when electrical signals happen in the brain. My rationale for this is that I consider death when thought permanently stops, hence life should begin when thought begins, so at the earliest it must be 8 weeks.

As for life beginning at conception, I don't see that as valid because of identical twins. If life begins at conception, when does a twins life begin? When the bundle of cells splits? but then that would be after conception. Thus I don't view that line as sharp and clean as it might seem.

As for life beginning at birth, that's just stupid. What's really the difference between a premie vs a fetus?

As for viability, that means the time at which life begins changes over time as technology improves. That doesn't seem a good argument.

Heartbeat also seems like crap. What if I replace a living person's heart with a pump? Are they still alive?

 

[Deleted member]

The ancients did define personhood at a stage called "Quickening", the first movement. Moral societies banned abortion and abortifactants after this point. So, there is traditional precedent for saying that life does not begin at conception, but instead at the first real evidence of signs of life from the foetus. In this case, electrical signals in the brain is a perfectly reasonable standard. While I absolutely oppose abortion for any cause whatsoever in the second and third trimesters, except to save the life of the mother, I have never completely ruled out the acceptability, with some cause, of first-trimester abortion, precisely because Traditionally the issue was not clear-cut of when life began, and Conception might even be an unusual position in that regard. Though even in the first trimester I regard it is a moral ill.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Some people I know don't qualify as human.

 

[ShieldWife]

A fetus is neither a human nor a non-human. It is in that philosophically uncomfortable gray zone where we can’t say that killing it is murder nor can we say that an abortion is mere tissue removal. It is an excluded middle.

 

[Deleted member]

Some people I know don't qualify as human.

'Touche, Jeff, but that's what we have the Browning Hi-Power for.

 

[Abhorsen]

A fetus is neither a human nor a non-human. It is in that philosophically uncomfortable gray zone where we can’t say that killing it is murder nor can we say that an abortion is mere tissue removal. It is an excluded middle.

Okay, but here I'm using it to refer to that which exists from conception until birth, includinge zygotes, embryos, and fetuses. At what point do you think that becomes a child?

 

[ShieldWife]

Okay, but here I'm using it to refer to that which exists from conception until birth, includinge zygotes, embryos, and fetuses. At what point do you think that becomes a child?

I don’t think that there is necessarily a clear cut line. It’s a continuum, which is what makes it hard. In the third trimester there isn’t really much of a functional difference between the fetus and a newborn. In the early weeks, it’s hard to attribute humanity to something with no nervous system. I’m not sure. It seems like discernible brain activity should be a major factor.

 

[Abhorsen]

I don’t think that there is necessarily a clear cut line. It’s a continuum, which is what makes it hard. In the third trimester there isn’t really much of a functional difference between the fetus and a newborn. In the early weeks, it’s hard to attribute humanity to something with no nervous system. I’m not sure. It seems like discernible brain activity should be a major factor.

Why don't you like a clear cut line? There is one for death, why not life?

 

[ShieldWife]

Why don't you like a clear cut line? There is one for death, why not life?

There isn’t a clear cut line between life and death. There are some people who are clearly alive and so d who are clearly dead, just as a newborn baby is clearly a human and a drop of semen isn’t. A corpse is dead and a healthy person is alive, but what about a brain dead person? What about someone with such severe brain damage that they can’t really think in any human sense? There are lots of states on the border of living and dying that are gray.

 

[Abhorsen]

There isn’t a clear cut line between life and death. There are some people who are clearly alive and so d who are clearly dead, just as a newborn baby is clearly a human and a drop of semen isn’t. A corpse is dead and a healthy person is alive, but what about a brain dead person? What about someone with such severe brain damage that they can’t really think in any human sense? There are lots of states on the border of living and dying that are gray.

Okay, I see where you are coming from. If there was permanently no brain activity, would you accept that the person is definitely dead?

 

[ShieldWife]

Okay, I see where you are coming from. If there was permanently no brain activity, would you accept that the person is definitely dead?

Probably so, but I guess it could potentially be a complicated question of whether or not it is a state where recovery is possible or if it isn’t. In the case where there is no brain activity and it’s impossible for it to come back, I would consider that person to be effectively dead despite the possible health of other parts of the body.

 

[Abhorsen]

Probably so, but I guess it could potentially be a complicated question of whether or not it is a state where recovery is possible or if it isn’t. In the case where there is no brain activity and it’s impossible for it to come back, I would consider that person to be effectively dead despite the possible health of other parts of the body.

So by a similar argument, would you consider a zygote to not be alive (past the grey area) since it has no brain, or is that also part of your grey area?

Also, thanks for indulging in this conversation with me. I'm hoping people can poke holes in my reasoning so I can get a better understanding of this.

 

[Fleiur]

So my opinion on when a fetus becomes a separate human life is at approximately 8 weeks after conception, specifically when electrical signals happen in the brain. My rationale for this is that I consider death when thought permanently stops, hence life should begin when thought begins, so at the earliest it must be 8 weeks.

As for life beginning at conception, I don't see that as valid because of identical twins. If life begins at conception, when does a twins life begin? When the bundle of cells splits? but then that would be after conception. Thus I don't view that line as sharp and clean as it might seem.

As for life beginning at birth, that's just stupid. What's really the difference between a premie vs a fetus?

As for viability, that means the time at which life begins changes over time as technology improves. That doesn't seem a good argument.

Heartbeat also seems like crap. What if I replace a living person's heart with a pump? Are they still alive?

So a pregnant woman decided to abort her baby and then, later on, when she got pregnant again and decided to keep the baby. When she decided to keep the baby that's where she recognized that it's a baby?

 

[Jeff Thomas]

We have three children, now all adults. At no time when she was pregnant did my wife wake me up in the middle of the night to tell me the fetus moved. It was always a baby.

 

[GoldRanger]

Third trimester. Abortion before that point should be fully legal at whim.

 

[Abhorsen]

So a pregnant woman decided to abort her baby and then, later on, when she got pregnant again and decided to keep the baby. When she decided to keep the baby that's where she recognized that it's a baby?

Are you endorsing this view? Because it seems like a really bad definition of life. Using this logic, what if the mother changes her mind? Does the baby go back to being a fetus?

We have three children, now all adults. At no time when she was pregnant did my wife wake me up in the middle of the night to tell me the fetus moved. It was always a baby.

Do you mean that it was a baby since the quickening? or a baby since conception? or some other point?

Third trimester. Abortion before that point should be fully legal at whim.

But why is third trimester any different than a week before third trimester? What has changed about the fetus that has made it a baby?

 

[Fleiur]

Are you endorsing this view? Because it seems like a really bad definition of life. Using this logic, what if the mother changes her mind? Does the baby go back to being a fetus?

I'm just asking if it's your point of view.

 

[Abhorsen]

I'm just asking if it's your point of view.

No, not at all. My view was in the first paragraph:

So my opinion on when a fetus becomes a separate human life is at approximately 8 weeks after conception, specifically when electrical signals happen in the brain. My rationale for this is that I consider death when thought permanently stops, hence life should begin when thought begins, so at the earliest it must be 8 weeks.

 

[Fleiur]

No, not at all. My view was in the first paragraph:

“(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.”

A Scientific View of When Life Begins | Charlotte Lozier Institute

I believe life begins at conception because the zygote immediately acts like an independent organism as it begins producing complex tissues and organs. This development into more mature stages of human life is the defining characteristic of human life.

See images of first trimester : 1-13 weeks

 

[Senor Hortler]

In my opinion it's a human from conception; and that no one should have the right to end that life unless it occurs in the process of saving the life of the mother. But also that abortions themselves are not the fault of the mother; but a result of the failure of the state to care for its citizens to the point where abortion is a more favoured option than raising the child, or having the child adopted.