A different Hong-Kong

[Buba]

The musings over a delicious SI - Margareth Thatcher into Victoria Alexandra - on AH-com made me wonder about the outcome of the 1st opium War.
Would Hong Kong (doesn't this mean "Stinking Cesspool" in Chinese?) happen on "Her Maggiesty's" watch?
The Chinese coast seems to lack Malta size or so islands, it is either a post stamp or Taiwan/Hainan.
Which of the two bigger islands would be better as base for trade? My first impression is that Taiwan is more centrally located. Or is there some convenient island I missed?
Or maybe there is some peninsula bigger than that with Kowloon? Tsing-Tao?

 

[Skallagrim]

It's not about being an island. Hong Kong was opportune because it's at the mouth of the Pearl River. (Macau is on the other side of the bay; these locations are not random.) The only superior locations would be at the mouth of the Yangtze (where Shanghai is, rather demonstrating how excellent that position is) or the Yellow River.

My foremost suggestion would be to somehow seize Chongming Island, Changxing Island and Hengsha Island -- right at the mouth of the Yangtze River, and in OTL part of Shanghai's municipal region. Ideally, though, I'd drop the desire for an island in particular, and try to annex the wider area, covering Shanghai itself, Suzhou and Nantong as well. Whoever controls that has undisputed economic control over the Yangtze's entire hinterland.

Hong Kong itself is the second-best option. Ideally, you'd want to somehow grab up Macau for yourself as well, so that you have uncontested control over the Pearl River.

The Yellow River has no such (relatively) easy-to-control point, but assuming control over the Dongying area is a good idea.


...If you control all three of the above locations, you have effectively vassalised China.

 

[Earl]

...If you control all three of the above locations, you have effectively vassalised China.

Stop it. The World can only stand so much insufferable British smugness and men in top hats chortling and kicking orphans while also establishing global trade and the like.

 

[Skallagrim]

Stop it. The World can only stand so much insufferable British smugness and men in top hats chortling and kicking orphans while also establishing global trade and the like.

"You clearly don't understand, old chum. Allow me to explain. We already control India. If we also control China, then we will have secured the global tea market and the dirty colonials will never be able to threaten our tea again. No more Boston tea parties! The only tea parties will be British! And the Covid regulations be damned! With this much power at our avail, the damned yokels won't be able to sack their Prime Minister! We'll be utterly beyond their reach. If they resist, we'll drown them in tea! RULE BRITANNIA!"

 

[Earl]

"You clearly don't understand, old chum. Allow me to explain. We already control India. If we also control China, then we will have secured the global tea market and the dirty colonials will never be able to threaten our tea again. No more Boston tea parties! The only tea parties will be British! And the Covid regulations be damned! With this much power at our avail, the damned yokels won't be able to sack their Prime Minister! We'll be utterly beyond their reach. If they resist, we'll drown them in tea! RULE BRITANNIA!"

The Chinese look at you and go “Nah, we have much more unpleasant ideas about what to do with you guys than even the Indians”

Which is the essential problem here. The boxers only got fucked because a united group of nations all had a interest in not allowing them to screw over there trade and even that long term lead to a decline in trade. If it’s just Britian…they are very thuroughly fucked.

 

[Airedale260]

The musings over a delicious SI - Margareth Thatcher into Victoria Alexandra - on AH-com made me wonder about the outcome of the 1st opium War.
Would Hong Kong (doesn't this mean "Stinking Cesspool" in Chinese?) happen on "Her Maggiesty's" watch?
The Chinese coast seems to lack Malta size or so islands, it is either a post stamp or Taiwan/Hainan.
Which of the two bigger islands would be better as base for trade? My first impression is that Taiwan is more centrally located. Or is there some convenient island I missed?
Or maybe there is some peninsula bigger than that with Kowloon? Tsing-Tao?

If I'm reading this correctly and it's a Thatcher SI into Queen Victoria...it would depend when it happens, and even then, Victoria had some missteps early in her reign that caused a constitutional crisis and nearly got her removed from the throne.

Later on, it was her taking Albert's advice and, after he died, withdrawing from public life that really facilitated the transition to modern parliamentary democracy. I don't see Thatcher as being able to be that passive.

As for why Hong Kong rather than Taiwan or Hainan, it was an island at the mouth of the Pearl River (on which Guangzhou/Canton is also located, just a little further up). So it gave the British a permanent base near China's main trading port. Taiwan and Hainan are just much too far away, since this is late sailing/early steam ship times. *And* it has a sheltered harbor.

Macau was already under Portuguese control and had been since the 1550s. But it's also significantly smaller.

 

[Buba]

If I'm reading this correctly and it's a Thatcher SI into Queen Victoria.

Yes. The thread "over there" is just a collection of loose thoughts.
One idea is that with her education Thatcher would had transformed Great Britain into a chemical industry powerhouse. Medicine - prolly same.

I was thinking about an alt-HK as the OTL version is too small.

 

[WolfBear]

"You clearly don't understand, old chum. Allow me to explain. We already control India. If we also control China, then we will have secured the global tea market and the dirty colonials will never be able to threaten our tea again. No more Boston tea parties! The only tea parties will be British! And the Covid regulations be damned! With this much power at our avail, the damned yokels won't be able to sack their Prime Minister! We'll be utterly beyond their reach. If they resist, we'll drown them in tea! RULE BRITANNIA!"

Since you mentioned COVID-19, I'm curious: What's the latest realistic PoD that you think it would have taken to prevent this pandemic?

It's not about being an island. Hong Kong was opportune because it's at the mouth of the Pearl River. (Macau is on the other side of the bay; these locations are not random.) The only superior locations would be at the mouth of the Yangtze (where Shanghai is, rather demonstrating how excellent that position is) or the Yellow River.

My foremost suggestion would be to somehow seize Chongming Island, Changxing Island and Hengsha Island -- right at the mouth of the Yangtze River, and in OTL part of Shanghai's municipal region. Ideally, though, I'd drop the desire for an island in particular, and try to annex the wider area, covering Shanghai itself, Suzhou and Nantong as well. Whoever controls that has undisputed economic control over the Yangtze's entire hinterland.

Hong Kong itself is the second-best option. Ideally, you'd want to somehow grab up Macau for yourself as well, so that you have uncontested control over the Pearl River.

The Yellow River has no such (relatively) easy-to-control point, but assuming control over the Dongying area is a good idea.


...If you control all three of the above locations, you have effectively vassalised China.

You know, I'm wondering if all of the little European concession-territories in China would have become similar to Hong Kong had European rule in them been maintained for 99 years just like it was in Hong Kong, such as if there would have been no World Wars at all. Anyway, what do you think?

 

[Buba]

Only the New Territories of HK had 99 years of British rule. The core was in UK hands for over half a century longer.
The Concession areas in cities were too small - borough size, a ghetto. Think something along the lines of the Vatican.