80 years since Winter War started.

[Tyzuris]

Today marks the 80th anniversary of the Winter War.

My paternal grandmother's father served in the Winter War (also served in Continuation War and our civil war in 1918). He served in the infantry. He had to put his service horse down as a mortar round landed and hit the horse. At one point also the Russians had encircled him on an island but for some reason they broke off contact and moved on leaving my great-grandfather able to move to the shore.

After the wars, he was a wreck for 10 years seeing constant nightmares, wanting to talk about it but no one willing to talk about the war. He looked younger in his 60s than 50s.

The war came at a high cost to us:

Around a tenth of our land was lost and we had to relocate over a tenth of our population to other parts of the country. We had lost 25000 soldiers and a thousand civilians. Over 40000 were injured. Just imagine how much of a dent this does to a nation of 3.5 million at the time. The Russian losses were 126000 dead and 188000 injured.

The sheer difference in military gear was quite shocking. We had 32 tanks in total to the 3000 the Soviets brought to the war. We had over a 100 aircraft to the 3800 aircraft the Soviets brought to the war. What made the aircraft situation worse for us was also the fact that our Air Force had had a false idea of importance of bombers, so our fighter count was too low. And other mistakes had been done as well including building very expensive armoured ships which took a lot of the defense budget in the 30s. And the government had been quite stingy in military budget during the 30s, so what little our defense forces could get, a lot of it went to wrong investments.

For 105 days we managed to hold on enough that it eventually forced Stalin to suck it up and come to peace negotiations.

 

[PsihoKekec]

And then Finland lost some more territory in the WWII. But at least they managed to defend their independence.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

>Killing half a million commies as a practice run for a few years later when you kill a million commies.

Not bad Finns, not bad.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Those are meme numbers, not the actual historical numbers (which TC posted).

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Those are meme numbers, not the actual historical numbers (which TC posted).

Casualties, desertions, prisoners, whatever. "Getting rid of" doesn't sound as good.

 

[Captain X]

Still a pretty big fan of The White Death, personally. That story will never get old for me.

 

[Arlos]

Let’s not forget to pay Hommage to Mannerheim who really saved the Finns, and people like Simo Häyhä and Lauri Allan Törni who really put the fear of the Finns into the Soviet.

 

[Grimn]

Today marks the 80th anniversary of the Winter War.

My paternal grandmother's father served in the Winter War (also served in Continuation War and our civil war in 1918). He served in the infantry. He had to put his service horse down as a mortar round landed and hit the horse. At one point also the Russians had encircled him on an island but for some reason they broke off contact and moved on leaving my great-grandfather able to move to the shore.

After the wars, he was a wreck for 10 years seeing constant nightmares, wanting to talk about it but no one willing to talk about the war. He looked younger in his 60s than 50s.

My paternal grandfather was a sergeant in an artillery battery, a gun leader I think. According to his service record he was wounded in 1939 by a rifle round, so that seems to me to indicate hard fighting. My maternal great grandfather was at Summa and according to my grandfather went through some heavy shit there. The availability of the service records, and being able to order them via the internet from the archives is great, and you can deduce a lot from them if you can read the handwriting. Most of it I can't. My mom has a box of letters written by my paternal grandfather to my grandmother during the wars and that stuff's easy compared to Sotilaspassi from the 40s.

The war came at a high cost to us:

Around a tenth of our land was lost and we had to relocate over a tenth of our population to other parts of the country. We had lost 25000 soldiers and a thousand civilians. Over 40000 were injured. Just imagine how much of a dent this does to a nation of 3.5 million at the time. The Russian losses were 126000 dead and 188000 injured.

The sheer difference in military gear was quite shocking. We had 32 tanks in total to the 3000 the Soviets brought to the war. We had over a 100 aircraft to the 3800 aircraft the Soviets brought to the war. What made the aircraft situation worse for us was also the fact that our Air Force had had a false idea of importance of bombers, so our fighter count was too low. And other mistakes had been done as well including building very expensive armoured ships which took a lot of the defense budget in the 30s. And the government had been quite stingy in military budget during the 30s, so what little our defense forces could get, a lot of it went to wrong investments.

IIRC Finland bought tanks from the UK in the 30s, but figured it'd be cheaper to not buy the guns and use what Finland had at the time. Battle of Honkaniemi shows how inadequately Finns had been keeping up with the times. Also how the fortifications in the Mannerheim Line didn't have integrated anti-tank guns.

Battle of Honkaniemi - Wikipedia

For 105 days we managed to hold on enough that it eventually forced Stalin to suck it up and come to peace negotiations.

The way Winter War is presented and remembered is as if it was all November and December, none of the February and March. By the time the cease fire was signed the Mannerheim Line was broken and flanked, there were no reserves, barely any ammunition for artillery. The Red Army had its disasters in 1939, then rethought it's approach: no more fancy multi-pronged offensives, just concentrate on the Karelian Isthmus. And tactically they trained and devised ways to work their way through the fortifications and it brought results.

What Finland had was the offer of an Anglo-French intervention that Stalin absolutely didn't want. The deadline of the offer coincided with the signing of the cease-fire. My impression from what I've read the Allied intervention had it been requested would have only harmed Finland, but the offer of it was a great asset for Finland.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Stalin feared the war against France, Germany and UK, so he was willing to compromise once the Anglo-French inervention was in the cards.

EDIT

Funny thing, one of the first pages I visited on the internet was about Winter War and it's still up, although the last update was 15 years ago.

Battles of the Winter War

 

[Tyzuris]

IIRC Finland bought tanks from the UK in the 30s, but figured it'd be cheaper to not buy the guns and use what Finland had at the time. Battle of Honkaniemi shows how inadequately Finns had been keeping up with the times. Also how the fortifications in the Mannerheim Line didn't have integrated anti-tank guns.

Yeah. 30s were the times when big mistakes were made with being stingy in using money for military. It worries me how some political segments still fight against investments into the defense forces. That just reeks of 30s mistakes and what it brought upon us in the 40s was quite unpleasant.

My impression from what I've read the Allied intervention had it been requested would have only harmed Finland, but the offer of it was a great asset for Finland.

How would it have hurt us?

 

[Grimn]

Stalin feared the war against France, Germany and UK, so he was willing to compromise once the Anglo-French inervention was in the cards.

Definitely. The Anglo-French offer of intervention evolved over time, at first Norwegian and Swedish consent was required, but ultimately they promised to send up to 30 000 men at Finland's request whether or not Sweden allowed it. It was apparent even at the time that the main goal for the French and the British was to occupy Northern Sweden to deprive Germany of the resources there, so on one hand Germany was not going to allow that to happen, Sweden was going to resist and Finland didn't see what good it could do except as a bargaining chip in convincing the USSR to stop the hostilities. From what I've read the negotiations for the cease-fire went a day beyond that which the Allies had set for the request for aid, and the Finnish delegation asked the Soviets to date the signing as having been a day earlier.

Yeah. 30s were the times when big mistakes were made with being stingy in using money for military. It worries me how some political segments still fight against investments into the defense forces. That just reeks of 30s mistakes and what it brought upon us in the 40s was quite unpleasant.

On some level I agree, but the 30s were different. Finland had been irredentist toward Russia in the 20s and had powerful political elements that continued to be so up until the end of the Continuation War, and when Stalin and the USSR were making demands from Finland in 1939 they were being honest that it was on the basis of being threatened by Germany. Once that threat was gone Finland was fairly secure.

How would it have hurt us?

What ever aid the Allies would have sent us, a couple of divisions at best, would have done nothing but prolong an inevitable defeat. I can't see that the allies would have gone beyond the Oulu region, because what were they going to do in the best of case aside of plugging some gaping hole by the time they got there?

 

[Tyzuris]

On some level I agree, but the 30s were different. Finland had been irredentist toward Russia in the 20s and had powerful political elements that continued to be so up until the end of the Continuation War, and when Stalin and the USSR were making demands from Finland in 1939 they were being honest that it was on the basis of being threatened by Germany. Once that threat was gone Finland was fairly secure.

But still if you want peace, prepare for war. And Russia's recent behaviour justifies that after the Goergia and Crimea stuff and pressuring us via airspace violations, etc... Despite the current makeup of the government, I am relieved they've swiftly signed the deal for our new corvettes and have set the price ceiling for our new fighter jets at the high end estimate of 10 billion euros.

 

[Grimn]

But still if you want peace, prepare for war. And Russia's recent behaviour justifies that after the Goergia and Crimea stuff and pressuring us via airspace violations, etc... Despite the current makeup of the government, I am relieved they've swiftly signed the deal for our new corvettes and have set the price ceiling for our new fighter jets at the high end estimate of 10 billion euros.

Of course, Russia is our greatest geopolitical threat, basically no matter what. I don't think Georgia and Crimea are particularly relevant to us, and airspace violations by Russia have been over emphasized (as others have violated our airspace as well). In terms of military spending I would like to see more emphasis on keeping a large, well trained reserve that would make it not worthwhile to come here at all, rather than on hardware that can be neutralised by a fait accompli. But I can see that we are also part of international defence organisations via the EU and co-operation with NATO so from that point of view and further integration with those organisations investing more on new fighter jets etc makes sense.

 

[Grimn]

 

[Erwin_Pommel]

My paternal grandmother's father served in the Winter War

*Salute*

That's good, hope he did your family and country proud.

Now I am sad as I am reminded of the fact none of my family seem to have any info on our history bar some vague lines about cotton farm owners at some point. Bleh.

For 105 days we managed to hold on enough that it eventually forced Stalin to suck it up and come to peace negotiations.

Pretty good achievement all things considered.