What if 1931 Poland is ISOT'd forward in time to 1951? What would the effects of this have been? Would the 1951 Soviet Union have proceeded to occupy 1931 Poland while the West is distracted in Korea? Just how much resistance would the Poles have put up? And what would the effects of both the Soviet Union (post-Kresy conquest) and Poland having a much larger Jewish population? Would these Jews be allowed to immigrate to Israel en masse? Would Israel actually have enough space and resources for them? And just how much of an effect would they subsequently have on Israel? For instance, might Israel permanently keep the West Bank and/or Gaza in this TL due to Israel having many more Jews?
1931 Poland is ISOT'd forward in time to 1951
- Thread starter WolfBear
- Start date
Stalin would stomp them quickly once he got over the confusion about it suddenly appearing. Its possible that being in a shooting war in Asia might prompt a stronger response than in 56 when Hungary was crushed but then the west has very little forces in Europe at this point and by the time they realise what's happened it would be too late to rescue the Poles while western Europe would be very vulnerable. Unless it pushes Truman to go nuclear?
I doubt they could put up much resistance against the 51 Red Army given its sheer firepower and weaponry plus it would still have a lot of veterans from WWII at the time. The USSR might even get support from Soviet Poland as the regime there - as opposed to the population - wouldn't want an alternative Polish state anywhere about.
I also suspect that no Jews would be allowed out - although this way most of them are going to survive unlike their OTL counterparts. Stalin was by some reports preparing an anti-Jewish purge shortly before his death and the USSR throughout its later years always sought to restrict Jewish emigration so I can't see many being allowed out here.
raharris1973
Well-known member
Stalin conquers it for socialism and doesn’t allow emigration. But Stalin is dead within two years.
Obvious variation - Stalin’s rage and disbelief at the nonsensical news causes him to stroke out on hearing it, and die shortly after.
Obvious variation - Stalin’s rage and disbelief at the nonsensical news causes him to stroke out on hearing it, and die shortly after.
Then what happens?
Actually a couple hundred thousand Soviet Jews were allowed to emigrate in the 1971-1980 time period. But most still were not.
This link contains Soviet Jewish emigration data by year:
Specifically on page 2.
Specifically on page 2.
raharris1973
Well-known member
Stalin dies in only about two years, do his successors allow emigration?
what if Stalin dies from the shock of hearing about this incredible event? Does the post Stalin collective leadership act decisively to pull together a Polish invasion?
First,you are sadist who want another country massacred by sralin
Second,why so many question about jews,and none about fate of poles there? becouse for me fate of massacred poles is more important then jews who in 1951 was soviet poland ruling class.And helped genocide poles.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
I agree, why don't you suggest moving the Polish from 1951 to 1931 instead? I don't like questions whose answers are quite simple.
I understand that Wolf is interested in saving the Jews because he has some family ties there, only that first of all, many of these Jews were de facto Poles and for that they were handed over by the real Jews into the hands of the murderers, if they were ever forced to emigrate to Israel they would turn it into a second Poland.
But if you want to save the Jews @WolfBear, save Poland that way you won't have to perform any breakneck operations that are ethnic cleansing.
Especially since many of them, as I said, were Poles and your proposal was an abomination to them, why should they leave their fatherland?
- Or it would be if hate filled morons didn't choose to believe such garbage. The idea that many of those Jews were Poles is doubly stupid when a lot of Poles helped the Germans round them up. Its a pity since the PLC was actually a well run state which derived a good bit of its power and success from its acceptance of new ideas and people until religious idiots tore it apart.It is a poor option to save Jews as while they would survive the German death camps they would still face Soviet rule. Albeit nothing like as murderous even if Stalin's planned pogrom of Jews had gone ahead. Assuming the that Soviet empire still collapses peacefully there is however a good chance that many of the descendants of those people might make it to Israel or another safe place. However not much better options I suppose.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Yes, yes tell yourself that all Jews in Poland were Jews, not Poles of the Mosaic faith as they were called. I'm not saying all of them, I'm saying a portion of them.
And as for the Poles helping the Germans catch the Jews. What kind of bullshit are you making up? Do you know that the underground state threatened death for this?
And the enforcers carried out such executions.
Yes, there were helpers for the Germans, the problem is that the Jews themselves were not exaggeratedly better at it. They also helped their fellow Jews to murder, starting, of course, with those who walked away from being Jews. These were often shocked that someone recognized them as Jews. They themselves did not recognize themselves as them, but as Poles. Which sometimes before the war was also questioned by the more extreme parties.
It is necessary to distinguish between Polish Jews who lived for generations in Poland and those who came from Russia through exile, the former became Poles over time and many of their descendants considered themselves as such. The latter were much more obvious and Poles were not, they even hated Poles.
You know what, fuck yourself in the head, you just showed that you know nothing about Poland. In no way did the religious idiots tear the PLC apart, there wasn't even a reason for that. It was only the propaganda of the partitioners that lied like that.
No one in Poland said when pointing out the reasons for the collapse the religious factor as important, and anyone familiar with the subject knows this.
In fact, the problem of the collapse was not the non-acceptance of new ideas, because these new ideas are absolutist bullshit for Poles so automatically out, but the problem was too much decentralization to the point where it is an example of a libertarian paradise and shows that it does not work, especially when there are neighbors who want to kill you.
The very example that Poland's reform was, although consistent in the spirit of ordering the Enlightenment, was at the same time anti-Enlightenment ideals is a good example of this. Instead of decentralization, centralization, instead of democracy, more monarchy.
As for the hatred, let me put it this way. I have nothing against Jews, not even respect. And for always trumpeting about the poor Jews and forgetting about the Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Gypsies and many other mass murders on the basis of nationality it hits me. Folks, it wasn't just Jews who were murdered back then, wasn't it better to just make sure that everyone was saved and not just the Jews? If not Jews then someone else the Nazis will choose to murder on a mass scale.
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It is a poor option to save Jews as while they would survive the German death camps they would still face Soviet rule. Albeit nothing like as murderous even if Stalin's planned pogrom of Jews had gone ahead. Assuming the that Soviet empire still collapses peacefully there is however a good chance that many of the descendants of those people might make it to Israel or another safe place. However not much better options I suppose.
Poor ignorant,germans not nazis when found rifle - or even entire arsenal - in polish home,they killed owner or send to camp,but family was usually spared.
When they found jews,they killed everybody.
So,tell me dear idiot,why germans punished us worst for hiding jews then hiding rifles,if we helped germans?
PLC - it fell,becouse idot gentry decided that they do not need real army after 1696.It is kind of miracle that we survived so long.
jews in communism - sralin planned to purge them,but first made them owners of commie Poland.When they co-ruled with soviets,and poles were used as brytes to torture patriots or useful idiots.
1.To be honest,most of jews do not cared about Poland,and helped both soviets and germans.Judenrats made by germans ruled over jews,and gettos was free from germans.
2.Indeed.If we hold Sobieski style army,with winged hussarls still training,we would be fine till Napoleon times.
No need for that.In 1951 Poland,jews were part of ruling commie elite.
Well that's a bloody lie for a start as your continually make antisemitic rants devoid of any factual accuracy as you have of assorted other groups that your twisted mind decides are enemies of your particular warped viewpoint.
For your information I didn't say all Poles and know that many Poles did seek to protect Jews and other victims of the Nazis. However some as with other eastern European nations did aid the Germans in killing Jews. Neither did I say that only Jews were killed. Your just projected your bigotry onto others because that's all you know. You choose to make blanket statements about entire groups and because your viewpoint is so limited you assume that everybody else has the same flaws.
Jews helped soviets,and made deal with germans in 1939.It is not rant,but facts.
And we still helped them when germans changed their minds and decided to genocide their friends.
Well,we deserved all bad things that happened to us after that.
Including your funny rants.
P.S from which country come those mythical nazis? naziland? or maybe GERMANY?
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
You know it's no bigotry, I just don't see the Jews as a sacred cow who can't be accused of anything even if they actually did it. As I said, I have nothing against Jews, not even respect. Which means I don't care about them and their ridiculous country, they can even fly off in a huff when the Arabs pounce on them.
There were a lot of motherfuckers among the Jews, so despicable that they were even able to turn their own in, in a situation where literally the Poles living next door tried to avoid it and even defend the Jews themselves.
Heck, even pre-war anti-Semites were able to bury their dislike of Jews just to save their lives. It worked and they were very grateful afterwards and they couldn't forget it.
And sometimes they turned out to be miscreants who, when the Commune came, delivered their defenders into the hands of the Soviet executioners.
Would I want a second genocide of the Jews to occur? Of course not, and I don't think the first one was in any way justified. No less, that doesn't mean I'm blind to how the Jews are riding the anti-Polish card toward us, even though we were or at least tried to be nice. If they don't want our friendship, well, tough, let them do what they want and reap the fruits of it later.
And no, I don't consider Jews to be enemies, just another part of our history, as worthy as any other. If they want to be hostile to us? Then let them be.
One word, Ghettos. They wanted them largely before the war and demanded it of Poland. Of course, our government didn't even see that it was a possibility, it would literally make these people even more cut off from Polish society deepening the division.
So when the Union of Polish Rabbis got such a proposal from the Germans they eagerly agreed. And the fact that it was a trap is another matter.
Especially since they also packed in those "Jews" who were only of the Jewish faith and not of the language or culture.
I know, that's why I say that those who cared about Poland were in fact Poles or well on their way to becoming them but the Germans saw it differently and the Jews saw them as traitors.
This is not a new or unknown phenomenon by the way. This continued from the time of partitions, where such Poles-Jews were treated badly by Jews because they betrayed and were received badly by Poles because they were often an effective competition, Jews got to them and they were not fully trusted that they Polonized. Which sometimes ended up with them being trapped between worlds, returning to being Jewish or trying to become more Polish.
No less fortunate were those "Jews" who have not been Jews for many generations and you wouldn't even know that they ever were.
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As @Batrix2070 said.
I only add,that jewish gettos when jewish Judenrat ruled without german interference had its own police,and in Warsaw even jewish gestapo which hunt poles helping jews.
Also in Warsaw rabins get germans list of catholics who was once jews - germans delivered them to getto where they were beaten,and when german start sending jews to death Judenrats send catholics first.