General political philosophy discussion

Marduk

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You are missing the point. This growth of power of government has directly facilitated all the great evils of 20th century, including Marxism / progressivism / socialism,
That is such an obvious obviousness. States have more resources and technologies to manage complex organizations than ever, of course everyone interested in taking or keeping power will use them, and that includes those who shouldn't be in power.
and is one of reasons why Left is winning, because Left is all about utilizing power of the government while dissolving more traditional power centres such as family, the Church and so on. The Right is trying to rely on those, but said bases are being destroyed. Meaning, it might have to accept the Left's idea of big government to win... which basically turns it to half-Leftism, and yeah. Not a good idea if you care about ethics, but then, the Left is literally defined by Me ne frego.
No, the right needs to have its own idea of government, unless the plan is to try secure the ancap vote. Obviously that includes using the power of the government against such grave threats as leftism to as extensive scale as possible, as far as legitimate roles for government go, national security and survival of the nation itself definitely count.
Families exist because they work, not because they are the status quo, that's why pretty much the whole world, even most of more exotic cultures, have them, take away the massive marxist propaganda and disincentive schemes and they will reassert themselves.
As for the Church, well, that ship has sailed between historical splintering and leftist entryism, if someone is going to be defeating leftism in the west, wouldn't count much on that one.
True. But my point is, this change to saner things will never be able to push society back to sanity because necessary structures had been destroyed. That is why the Right is described as merely applying the brakes, as this destruction means that they are only ever able to achieve the "slightly less insane" level, but never to completely eliminate the leftist/modernist insanity that has taken over.
That's the wrong idea here, don't push back directly, we need to push the leftist train to the side, for it is powerful, but very unstable. Come up with own ideas, instead of letting the left dictate the conversation and make it all about whether leftist's ideas should be braked or compromised with, even when for various reasons the old status quo, including aforementioned monarchy, just isn't realistically feasible.


And their democracy was not a natural evolution either, it was basically imported.
Democracy comes and goes, many ancient peoples had some form of it, ancients also invented republics, and so on.

Second, if you look at Progressivism as a religion - which it is - you will realize that religious freedom doesn't really exist except on the paper, because Progressivism is basically assimilating all the other religions.
And it only works because progressives are being sneaky bastards who work around the whole legal system built around religions, letting their nascent religion take all the practical functions of a religion first, but none of the obvious trappings and decorations that would make most of society recognize it as one, and they don't seek such recognition either.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
No, the right needs to have its own idea of government, unless the plan is to try secure the ancap vote. Obviously that includes using the power of the government against such grave threats as leftism to as extensive scale as possible, as far as legitimate roles for government go, national security and survival of the nation itself definitely count.

That is basically what I said. Ideal for right wing would be either extremely limited or no government, letting the culture and tradition do the work instead of the government... but that is never going to work in front of the Left's obsession with destroying the entire society.

Families exist because they work, not because they are the status quo, that's why pretty much the whole world, even most of more exotic cultures, have them, take away the massive marxist propaganda and disincentive schemes and they will reassert themselves.

As for the Church, well, that ship has sailed between historical splintering and leftist entryism, if someone is going to be defeating leftism in the west, wouldn't count much on that one.

Thing is, families are being destroyed. Between the long work hours, equality of sexes, gazillions of genders, influence of television and internet, anti-family propaganda beginning in kindergartens... what modern society calls a family is little more than a zombified remnant of what a true family is.

So rather than counting on families and the Church to save us from leftism, as so many right-wingers appear to do, it is precisely these two that need saving from the leftism.

That's the wrong idea here, don't push back directly, we need to push the leftist train to the side, for it is powerful, but very unstable. Come up with own ideas, instead of letting the left dictate the conversation and make it all about whether leftist's ideas should be braked or compromised with, even when for various reasons the old status quo, including aforementioned monarchy, just isn't realistically feasible.

Thing is, there needs to be a direct pushback against leftism as well. One of reasons why Left is good at winning is because it a) plays at emotions and b) is good at vilifying everything that stands up to them. So trying to push the leftist train to the side is not likely to work, because it is less of a train and more of a bowling ball. No matter what vector you push at it, it keeps rolling; the only way to stop is to destroy it.

No matter what ideas we come up with, the Left will find a way to vilify them. Tribalism is basically the most natural thing in the world, the very basis of human society and human psyche, yet the Left has managed to vilify literally any and every expression of tribalism, either directly or by association.

Democracy comes and goes, many ancient peoples had some form of it, ancients also invented republics, and so on.

Yeah, but except on the most local of levels, it was very rare. And very rarely lasted for long - it usually degenerated into oligarchy, which is precisely what has happened to modern democracies as well (although they still pretend to be democracies).

And it only works because progressives are being sneaky bastards who work around the whole legal system built around religions, letting their nascent religion take all the practical functions of a religion first, but none of the obvious trappings and decorations that would make most of society recognize it as one, and they don't seek such recognition either.

Agreed, but that is one of main aspects which make progressivism so powerful. So how to counter it?
 

Bacle

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Agreed, but that is one of main aspects which make progressivism so powerful. So how to counter it?
Simple, you don't; the is no silver bullet and no grand strategy that can defeat the Far-Left without becoming the monster's they already paint the Right as.

Progressivism isn't going away, even if the Right somehow regains more power than the Left, and learning to live with it and focus on curbing it's excess is the best outcome we have right now.

Also, pretending that the Right has not shot itself in the foot, repeatedly, because the Right keeps trying to hold onto the past instead of shape the future, is dishonest. While the Right wanted to grill, the Left march through the institutions; while the Right focused on trying to 'balance the national budget' like it is a household (one of the stupidest bugaboo's of the Right), the Left realized they could weaponize the markets against the Right; while the Right kept acting like military intervention will solve most ills facing the US internationally, the Left pulled out their old Vietnam playbook.

In essence, the Right suffered the a lot of the same overconfidence and ego puffing the Russia military had going into Ukraine. It started it's fight with incomplete or inaccurate intel, doesn't adapt to new strategies very fast because it's stuck in a decade old paradigm it thinks it can keep acting is still real, and thinks that you can fight battle based on wished-for conditions, instead of existing conditions.

And that's not even counting the parts of the Right that are just controlled opposition or grifters looking to fleece the flock; money gathered in a political campaign and not used in it because the person lost can still be used by those politicians for..other things unrelated to politics.

So, basically, your idea of how to fight the Left is not only unrealistic, but relies on trying to get the Right to support strategies that already failed a long time back and that the Left has already figured out how to beat.
 

Marduk

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That is basically what I said. Ideal for right wing would be either extremely limited or no government, letting the culture and tradition do the work instead of the government... but that is never going to work in front of the Left's obsession with destroying the entire society.
The left, certain foreign influences, the big corporations and so on.
Let's be realistic, in the more crowded, competitive, "smaller", world with its dynamic threats is just not conductive to such near anarchist fantasies. I'd focus more on orienting the full scale of government's power more towards protecting its citizen's freedoms and controlling the international situation, as opposed to controlling own citizens and protecting international interests.
Thing is, families are being destroyed. Between the long work hours, equality of sexes, gazillions of genders, influence of television and internet, anti-family propaganda beginning in kindergartens... what modern society calls a family is little more than a zombified remnant of what a true family is.
Half of these issues are unrelated to progressivism and more related to general socioeconomic changes over the last 200 years. News solutions in those areas are needed, but even if you could snap your fingers and make leftism disappear, some of these problems, to some degree, would remain, as they do exist even in places like Japan, Russia and even Iran. Some of the problems meanwhile would completely disappear - after all, Japan has some biggest and most crowded cities in the world, yet they don't have some of these quite new problems that have become "part and parcel of living in a big city" in the west.

So rather than counting on families and the Church to save us from leftism, as so many right-wingers appear to do, it is precisely these two that need saving from the leftism.
How do you save those who don't want to be saved? Its one thing to convince right wingers and centrists that some form of more traditional family just works better than the leftist alternatives, but totally infiltrated institutions and leftist families themselves, not much you can do about those.


Thing is, there needs to be a direct pushback against leftism as well. One of reasons why Left is good at winning is because it a) plays at emotions and b) is good at vilifying everything that stands up to them. So trying to push the leftist train to the side is not likely to work, because it is less of a train and more of a bowling ball. No matter what vector you push at it, it keeps rolling; the only way to stop is to destroy it.

No matter what ideas we come up with, the Left will find a way to vilify them. Tribalism is basically the most natural thing in the world, the very basis of human society and human psyche, yet the Left has managed to vilify literally any and every expression of tribalism, either directly or by association.
They are as tribalist as they come, they just consider their not-religion their tribe, just like islamists in third world easily ignore tribal divisions regarding fellow islamists, but will kill own tribesmen for having wrong religious views.


Yeah, but except on the most local of levels, it was very rare. And very rarely lasted for long - it usually degenerated into oligarchy, which is precisely what has happened to modern democracies as well (although they still pretend to be democracies).
The Roman Republic lasted for nearly half a millenium, so considering modern tools and the cultural heritage of western countries, not a terrible timespan to aim at.


Agreed, but that is one of main aspects which make progressivism so powerful. So how to counter it?
Probably some combination of lawfare and trolling, especially by recognized religions. Or just wait and provoke them to go into antics that go so far the proto-religious nature of their belief is clear, they got dangerously close to that point with the George Floyd cult.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The left, certain foreign influences, the big corporations and so on.
Let's be realistic, in the more crowded, competitive, "smaller", world with its dynamic threats is just not conductive to such near anarchist fantasies. I'd focus more on orienting the full scale of government's power more towards protecting its citizen's freedoms and controlling the international situation, as opposed to controlling own citizens and protecting international interests.

Agreed. Although problem is, government will always decide to use it against the people it sees as a problem.

Half of these issues are unrelated to progressivism and more related to general socioeconomic changes over the last 200 years. News solutions in those areas are needed, but even if you could snap your fingers and make leftism disappear, some of these problems, to some degree, would remain, as they do exist even in places like Japan, Russia and even Iran. Some of the problems meanwhile would completely disappear - after all, Japan has some biggest and most crowded cities in the world, yet they don't have some of these quite new problems that have become "part and parcel of living in a big city" in the west.

They are not unrelated, they are one of the reasons why leftism / progressivism is so successful. Families basically don't exist anymore, and literally everything we have come up with to try and compensate for that problem... is controlled by the left.

Leftism is just better at adapting to conditions created by modernity, partly because it was created by said conditions.

How do you save those who don't want to be saved? Its one thing to convince right wingers and centrists that some form of more traditional family just works better than the leftist alternatives, but totally infiltrated institutions and leftist families themselves, not much you can do about those.

I meant families in general. As for the Church, no idea. Half of the leftist language is basically copy-pasted from Church sermons anyway, it is just out of the context and often pushed to the extreme.

They are as tribalist as they come, they just consider their not-religion their tribe, just like islamists in third world easily ignore tribal divisions regarding fellow islamists, but will kill own tribesmen for having wrong religious views.

What I meant is that unlike natural tribes which are mostly concerned with their own survival and only lash out against others if they are perceived as a danger, leftists want absolute domination - they see any dissent as a threat, and do not want to allow existence of anything outside the leftism itself.

It is an epitome of totalitarian ideology.

The Roman Republic lasted for nearly half a millenium, so considering modern tools and the cultural heritage of western countries, not a terrible timespan to aim at.

True, and it was replaced by a monarchical government that lasted for 1500 years. But the world has sped up significantly since then.

I also disagree about those acts being necessary. For example, the espionage act started out not too bad but expanded greatly due to war hysteria.

That is what I meant with "but problem is".

Simple, you don't; the is no silver bullet and no grand strategy that can defeat the Far-Left without becoming the monster's they already paint the Right as.

Progressivism isn't going away, even if the Right somehow regains more power than the Left, and learning to live with it and focus on curbing it's excess is the best outcome we have right now.

But that basically means accepting Left's victory as inevitable and, essentially, hoping that some kind of apocalypse will wipe out the modern society without exterminating human species as such, and that before Leftists manage to either cause humanity to go extinct or to turn it into something unrecognizable.

I'd rather become a monster - except even that hasn't managed to stop them (see Chile).

Also, pretending that the Right has not shot itself in the foot, repeatedly, because the Right keeps trying to hold onto the past instead of shape the future, is dishonest. While the Right wanted to grill, the Left march through the institutions; while the Right focused on trying to 'balance the national budget' like it is a household (one of the stupidest bugaboo's of the Right), the Left realized they could weaponize the markets against the Right; while the Right kept acting like military intervention will solve most ills facing the US internationally, the Left pulled out their old Vietnam playbook.

In essence, the Right suffered the a lot of the same overconfidence and ego puffing the Russia military had going into Ukraine. It started it's fight with incomplete or inaccurate intel, doesn't adapt to new strategies very fast because it's stuck in a decade old paradigm it thinks it can keep acting is still real, and thinks that you can fight battle based on wished-for conditions, instead of existing conditions.

And that's not even counting the parts of the Right that are just controlled opposition or grifters looking to fleece the flock; money gathered in a political campaign and not used in it because the person lost can still be used by those politicians for..other things unrelated to politics.

So, basically, your idea of how to fight the Left is not only unrealistic, but relies on trying to get the Right to support strategies that already failed a long time back and that the Left has already figured out how to beat.

Right has lost in large part because Left advances and Right compromises. Today's conservatives are yesteryear's progressives. Punt today's rightists about a hundred years in the past, and they will be the worst of leftists by that time's standards.

The main problem is that the Right is merely focused on preserving what they know, on preserving their childhood memories, whereas Left is focused on destroying the current society and making their ideals into childhood memories of the next generation. And this means that next generation of conservatives will be completely, utterly indistinguishable from today's progressives, while next generation of progressives will have been considered insane by most of today's progressives.

Look at what happened to previous generation of Wokeist, Leftist idols for a perfect illustration. J.K. Rowling? You know, that typical hypocritical foaming-at-the-mouth leftist author? Just recently, she got cancelled by new generation leftists because she is apparently fascist.

This generational mutation is how the Left wins. Conservatives, by their very nature, live in the present. They only react. As a result, they simply cannot oppose a movement - a cult - whose fundamental nature is constructed around forcing a permanent change, a march into oblivion.

You know the Tet offensive stalled and then got pushed back right?
It was a good surprise but still showed just how outmatched the NVA and the VC were against them.

Tet offensive was a success because it was a propaganda victory. Tactically, it basically destroyed the Viet Cong, but strategically, it ended any hope of United States winning the war.
 

Marduk

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Agreed. Although problem is, government will always decide to use it against the people it sees as a problem.
Them we need governments that will see leftists, islamists, foreign aggressors and the like as problems.

They are not unrelated, they are one of the reasons why leftism / progressivism is so successful. Families basically don't exist anymore, and literally everything we have come up with to try and compensate for that problem... is controlled by the left.

Leftism is just better at adapting to conditions created by modernity, partly because it was created by said conditions.
Was it? There were quite a few countries that fell to communism long before they have experienced much modernity. Some still didn't, see: North Korea.

I meant families in general. As for the Church, no idea. Half of the leftist language is basically copy-pasted from Church sermons anyway, it is just out of the context and often pushed to the extreme.
Families, unlike the Church, are not an unitary institution. Some do better than others.


What I meant is that unlike natural tribes which are mostly concerned with their own survival and only lash out against others if they are perceived as a danger, leftists want absolute domination - they see any dissent as a threat, and do not want to allow existence of anything outside the leftism itself.

It is an epitome of totalitarian ideology.
In that they are much like islamists. Who, in turn, aren't exactly something particularly modern. They have shown up in history now and then before modernity.
Which means there is nothing special or exceptional about them. Just another bunch of zealots with a crazy ideology, not the first in history, certainly not the last either.
True, and it was replaced by a monarchical government that lasted for 1500 years. But the world has sped up significantly since then.
Yet there is a reason why so many richest and most powerful countries base their system of government on Roman Republic, not monarchy. If monarchy was a well adapted system for modern conditions, you would see the existing, surviving, "naturally selected" monarchies be more successful than they are. There is a reason why most of them fell apart.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Them we need governments that will see leftists, islamists, foreign aggressors and the like as problems.

And how do we get such governments? Voting doesn't work, because votes can be stolen, and politicians can be bought.

Was it? There were quite a few countries that fell to communism long before they have experienced much modernity. Some still didn't, see: North Korea.

Modernity began with the French Revolution, at least by the definition I am using.

Families, unlike the Church, are not an unitary institution. Some do better than others.

"Some" families will not save the civilization, however.

In that they are much like islamists. Who, in turn, aren't exactly something particularly modern. They have shown up in history now and then before modernity.
Which means there is nothing special or exceptional about them. Just another bunch of zealots with a crazy ideology, not the first in history, certainly not the last either.

Problem is, such zealots seem to be crazily successful at dominating everybody else. Comparing progressives to Muslims does not bode well for anybody's chances of stopping them.

Yet there is a reason why so many richest and most powerful countries base their system of government on Roman Republic, not monarchy. If monarchy was a well adapted system for modern conditions, you would see the existing, surviving, "naturally selected" monarchies be more successful than they are. There is a reason why most of them fell apart.

Is there?

Germany became rich and successful while under a monarchy. In fact, it became a preeminent power on the continent - not just military, but economic power as well.
Russia had started quickly modernizing and industrializing while under a monarchy (about the time when it abolished serfdom in 1861). Communists literally had to kickstart the revolution, because any later and they will not have been able to do a thing. And everything they achieved in terms of industrializing USSR was based on inertia inherited from the Empire. Once that ran out, USSR fell into disrepair.
Slovenia and Croatia were and still are the most developed areas of the Yugoslavia - both the Kingdom and Socialist - thanks to the Austro-Hungarian administration. Administration which, by the way, kept them intentionally underdeveloped. Austria-Hungary itself was rapidly developing economically in late 19th century, despite only having abandoned feudalism a short time before.

It seems to me that countries became rich and powerful first, which then changes balance of power within the society, and so you get a republic. Republic is a consequence of economic development, not its cause.

You are coming at this of the dichotomy of just a 'complete and utter removal of opposition in power is victory, anything less is defeat', while not realizing that there are other...orthogonal options besides just 'Left or Right political victory'.

'Coexistence around the center, depowering of both fringes' is what the best outcome is for everyone. It won't be perfect and social/political conflict will occur, but we may be able to rein in the worst of both sides and set new ground rules for social discussions/actions going forward.

Now that might seem like a total defeat to you, but it's a reality most of humanity could tolerate.

Except the "coexistence around the center" is literally how the Left wins. Left pushes, Right applies the brakes - and so Left gains half a foot instead of a foot. Then it happens again, and again, and again. And then we had moved half a mile to the Left and don't understand how and why it happened.
 

Marduk

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And how do we get such governments? Voting doesn't work, because votes can be stolen, and politicians can be bought.
Become the ones who count the votes or watch those who do.
Modernity began with the French Revolution, at least by the definition I am using.
Which by such specific designation should affect non-western cultures even less.
"Some" families will not save the civilization, however.
They absolutely can, even if only because they are the only ones left standing.
Problem is, such zealots seem to be crazily successful at dominating everybody else. Comparing progressives to Muslims does not bode well for anybody's chances of stopping them.
Are they? The zealots suffer from a pathological inability to pragmatically and efficiently organize their societies, which is not a big issue when everyone they try to dominate is falling empires or glorified warlord states who have the same or worse problems, but once they encounter a society with some military power and its affairs in order, they become little more than target practice, like the islamists did to Europe's empires, and if not for the west's internal problem that's what they would have remained.

Is there?

Germany became rich and successful while under a monarchy. In fact, it became a preeminent power on the continent - not just military, but economic power as well.
Russia had started quickly modernizing and industrializing while under a monarchy (about the time when it abolished serfdom in 1861). Communists literally had to kickstart the revolution, because any later and they will not have been able to do a thing. And everything they achieved in terms of industrializing USSR was based on inertia inherited from the Empire. Once that ran out, USSR fell into disrepair.
Slovenia and Croatia were and still are the most developed areas of the Yugoslavia - both the Kingdom and Socialist - thanks to the Austro-Hungarian administration. Administration which, by the way, kept them intentionally underdeveloped. Austria-Hungary itself was rapidly developing economically in late 19th century, despite only having abandoned feudalism a short time before.

It seems to me that countries became rich and powerful first, which then changes balance of power within the society, and so you get a republic. Republic is a consequence of economic development, not its cause.
Then why are there so many (poorly functioning) republics in the poorest parts of the world?
Germany got powerful under a monarchy because it got united and reaped the benefits of that under a monarchy, on top of the time being the beginning of industrial age with all the economic benefits of that.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Become the ones who count the votes or watch those who do.

That might work...

Which by such specific designation should affect non-western cultures even less.

You are forgetting that West is very good at exporting its insanity. Communism got exported from Germany to literally across the world.

They absolutely can, even if only because they are the only ones left standing.

Unless they get murdered or something. Society exists for a reason.

Best option would be creating Amish-like communities in isolated places to basically weather to storm.

Are they? The zealots suffer from a pathological inability to pragmatically and efficiently organize their societies, which is not a big issue when everyone they try to dominate is falling empires or glorified warlord states who have the same or worse problems, but once they encounter a society with some military power and its affairs in order, they become little more than target practice, like the islamists did to Europe's empires, and if not for the west's internal problem that's what they would have remained.

Except, again, domination does not need to be military domination. Indonesia became Muslim shithole because of proselytization and immigration, not through conquest. West as a collective has the greatest degree of military power in the world right now, yet it is being destroyed from within.

Guns won't protect you from what is literally contagious psychopathy.

Then why are there so many (poorly functioning) republics in the poorest parts of the world?

None of them are natural developments, though. They are basically copying the system introduced by colonial powers, none of which was a proper monarchy, except maybe for the German Empire but that didn't last long.

And for a more cynical explanation, they are republics because everybody wants to be a king, or at least a high level thief, and republican government allows for satisfying a far greater number of thieves than a monarchy does.

"Wingo!"

Alright guys! Just a friendly reminder to stay on topic and not to continue pointless derails off subject, this is already a derail thread do we have too seriously made a derail thread for it?

So please try to stay relevant and on topic of the initial derail discussion.

Could you shift previous derail posts to this thread?
 

Free-Stater 101

Freedom Means Freedom!!!
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No. Being a Man, he has no idea how to clean anything that isn't landscaping or automobile related, threads included.
1i0mpf.jpg
 

Marduk

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You are forgetting that West is very good at exporting its insanity. Communism got exported from Germany to literally across the world.
All sorts of ideas did from various places. But they are successful in far less places.
Unless they get murdered or something. Society exists for a reason.

Best option would be creating Amish-like communities in isolated places to basically weather to storm.
They won't let you stay isolated. Taking an example from certain aggressive foreign minorities and countries in strife is a better idea. You need to make the other guys want to let you be isolated.

Except, again, domination does not need to be military domination. Indonesia became Muslim shithole because of proselytization and immigration, not through conquest. West as a collective has the greatest degree of military power in the world right now, yet it is being destroyed from within.

Guns won't protect you from what is literally contagious psychopathy.
In the west immigration is the main problem, and not for lack of ability to stop it, just will. The conversion numbers are pitiful, and prospects of cultural expansionism of Arab culture, unlike in third world backwaters, are likewise. So in that way we have very good resistance to the contagion.

None of them are natural developments, though. They are basically copying the system introduced by colonial powers, none of which was a proper monarchy, except maybe for the German Empire but that didn't last long.
Alternatively, everyone is copying the system of the successful countries, especially those successful in political and cultural sense.

And for a more cynical explanation, they are republics because everybody wants to be a king, or at least a high level thief, and republican government allows for satisfying a far greater number of thieves than a monarchy does.
Looking at the royal families of Gulf States and many bankrupt monarchies of history, i would not be so sure. The number of thieves will expand until it reaches the limit of tolerated thievery regardless of the system in question. For that, you need a culture that hates thieves, and a reasonable small government not strong enough to pacify the people who hate thieves by force. This is something republican governments absolutely can do.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
In the west immigration is the main problem, and not for lack of ability to stop it, just will. The conversion numbers are pitiful, and prospects of cultural expansionism of Arab culture, unlike in third world backwaters, are likewise. So in that way we have very good resistance to the contagion.
Ability to stop it..
They are encouraging it, because their corpos want cheap labor and a growing consumer base, and the governments want more voters, and the welfare bureaucracies want more leeches so as to expand themselves and make their existence look less worthless.
Also, even poorer countries will be forced to take in more and more foreigners with improvements to GDP and the further centralization and expansion of EU control.

Alternatively, everyone is copying the system of the successful countries, especially those successful in political and cultural sense.
Throughout human history China has usually been wildly successful, should we copy their top down, mandarinist approach and confucian values, then?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
All sorts of ideas did from various places. But they are successful in far less places.

Some ideas however are very good at destroying everything.

They won't let you stay isolated. Taking an example from certain aggressive foreign minorities and countries in strife is a better idea. You need to make the other guys want to let you be isolated.

Agreed.

In the west immigration is the main problem, and not for lack of ability to stop it, just will. The conversion numbers are pitiful, and prospects of cultural expansionism of Arab culture, unlike in third world backwaters, are likewise. So in that way we have very good resistance to the contagion.

I'd say immigration is more of a symptom. Greatest problem is that basically all generations since World War II had been raised to be self-hating autoracists.

People who have no pride cannot even think of defending themselves, let alone start doing it.

Alternatively, everyone is copying the system of the successful countries, especially those successful in political and cultural sense.

Which again brings us to the "chicken and the egg" question. Is democracy a cause or a consequence of the success? I'd say it is the latter, which is why a country cannot suddenly become successful merely because it democratized.

Looking at the royal families of Gulf States and many bankrupt monarchies of history, i would not be so sure. The number of thieves will expand until it reaches the limit of tolerated thievery regardless of the system in question. For that, you need a culture that hates thieves, and a reasonable small government not strong enough to pacify the people who hate thieves by force. This is something republican governments absolutely can do.

Agreed. On the flip side however, there are systems - such as Communism and, one could argue, the modern social state - which basically encourage thievery.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Migration is just one symptom of liberalism-induced self-hate and multi-culty nonsense.
Letting various minorities getting away with not integrating and throwing money and them and at the criminal underclass to just continue as they do, and have more children so as to get more gibs, is also a problem.

If anything, the lighter approach has decreased literacy, job rates and integration.
 

Marduk

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Throughout human history China has usually been wildly successful, should we copy their top down, mandarinist approach and confucian values, then?
You would have had a good point for most time before the industrial revolution, and many of the absolute monarchs, emperors and the like of the time would think it a great point.
Now since the time when the west went so ahead of China that UK could bully it, China is not doing that well in relative terms.
Some ideas however are very good at destroying everything.
In some places they do get cornered as a bunch of weirdos with few percent genuine support.

I'd say immigration is more of a symptom. Greatest problem is that basically all generations since World War II had been raised to be self-hating autoracists.

People who have no pride cannot even think of defending themselves, let alone start doing it.
Well, at least tried. This self-hate was in fact qualified and measured.
883104fdaad1810c8dbbb2a6df5a4b6ed7d5036f-2560x1138.jpg

Its mostly limited to a segment of US society describing themselves as liberals, at least among the white ones, so probably around quarter of population. So not exactly all generations and whole society, just the most leftist quartile.

Which again brings us to the "chicken and the egg" question. Is democracy a cause or a consequence of the success? I'd say it is the latter, which is why a country cannot suddenly become successful merely because it democratized.
Well there are many non successful countries who democratize, so it can't be the consequence of success either.


Agreed. On the flip side however, there are systems - such as Communism and, one could argue, the modern social state - which basically encourage thievery.
Even those, if they fail to set up some limits, then collapse simply because there are so many thieves that too much gets stolen for the state to function.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
You would have had a good point for most time before the industrial revolution, and many of the absolute monarchs, emperors and the like of the time would think it a great point.
Now since the time when the west went so ahead of China that UK could bully it, China is not doing that well in relative terms.
Civilization have their ups and downs.
Some historians see China's falling behind as a temporary fluke and the exception, rather than the norm.
They and other confucian societies, like HK, Singapore, Vietnam, Taiwan, and South Korea, certainly have caught up to the west rather quickly, and for them some western ideas, like excessive liberalism and communism look to be more hindrance than benefit.
There is even a whole subsection of research into development called guerrocentrism that postulates Europe developed as it did because of constant internal and frequent external conflicts and the impossibility for a single empire to take the whole continent.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Well, at least tried. This self-hate was in fact qualified and measured.
883104fdaad1810c8dbbb2a6df5a4b6ed7d5036f-2560x1138.jpg
883104fdaad1810c8dbbb2a6df5a4b6ed7d5036f-2560x1138.jpg

Its mostly limited to a segment of US society describing themselves as liberals, at least among the white ones, so probably around quarter of population. So not exactly all generations and whole society, just the most leftist quartile.

So then the problem comes back to them having power.

Well there are many non successful countries who democratize, so it can't be the consequence of success either.

That mostly comes down to impression and "follow the leader" mentality. In Croatia at least, there was that assumption that we will become a new Switzerland the moment we abandon Communism and embrace democracy. And once that failed, our politicians shifted to "entering the EU" as a new golden goose.

In short: West becomes successful > West democratizes due to internal processes caused by that > idiots want to become successful > idiots conclude that the West is successful due to democracy > idiots democratize ahead of time.

And West supports that belief because it allows Western capitalists and NGOs to literally buy out newly-assed "democratic" politicians. Tuđman tried to save Croatia from that fate, failed, and is now being treated as basically Hitler in some circles.

There is also the fact that United States, which had been the most powerful country in the world since early 1900s and the world's preeminent imperial power since 1945., is a democracy. So again, "follow the leader", much like the dominance of Christianity in the West comes down largely to Roman and Frankish Empires adapting it and then everybody and their aunt deciding to follow the leader (sometimes at the sword point, but hey...).

Even those, if they fail to set up some limits, then collapse simply because there are so many thieves that too much gets stolen for the state to function.

Agreed.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
Throughout human history China has usually been wildly successful, should we copy their top down, mandarinist approach and confucian values, then?
Alternatehistory forum is way ahead of you.
Kaiserboi said:
BrSonic said:
BrSonic said:
Fabius Maximus said:
But seriously, no, Confucianism failed quite spectacularly. Turns out, sabotaging your own technological development so your leadership can maintain control over your civilization is a really bad idea if your civilization isn't universal and your rivals don't likewise self-sabotage.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Again, while I do not agree that Zelensky himself is a Nazi, I do not see why being a Jew would prevent one from being a Nazi? Hardly the first time in history that a member of certain ethnicity has adapted an ideology whose goal is to genocide said ethnicity. I could give examples, but that part should go into the derail thread.

Considering how many "secular" Jews supported Hitler at the start and moronically thought he meant Slavic Jews and "Anglo-Jews"? And that these same morons forefathers made the same dumb excuses for Robespierre and before him, Cromwell and before that for Hadrian?

That's an actual serious issue that's plagued the Jewish faith/ethnicity for millennia...Arguably more so than any other ethnic group except for Cantonese people?

Ayeep...Or at least Pre-Hitler Nazism which was more about worshipping dirt and doing rag time era crack...There's always gonna be some dumbass who goes "Nah but they totally mean everyone except me!" right up until the moment the knives come out.

Throughout human history China has usually been wildly successful, should we copy their top down, mandarinist approach and confucian values, then?

I wouldn't call being the stagnate megastate that essentially functioned as the "free shit over here" of Steppe peoples and became the prison wife of any foreign power dynamic enough to hustle them to where a bunch of Scottish Drug dealers and Argentine silver barons collapsed two of their empires within two centuries of each other. And both times by accident..

China is the greatest clownshow on earth.
 
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