NGSW and other Military Rifle R&D

Zachowon · May 10, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
The Army wants the budget to fight WWIII, they don’t actually want to fight it. More importantly, neither does Congress. And going to a bulkier, more volumetric round before you go poking the bear and the dragon is the kind of pants on head stupid that only big army is capable of.

The Army has decided to switch because they know that it is better to be prepared for a war that never happens then to let it happen.
We don't want another Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
The Army is planning to make life easier with a lighter and more powerful LMG, and a more powerful round in the NGSW.
Hell, there is talk of making a lighter M240 but in 303.
The Army is changing to go inline with modern warfare

DocSolarisReich · May 10, 2021

If your idea of 'modern warfare' asks for a main infantry rifle with a twenty round magazine, whose chief advantages over the existing suite of arms are increased range and penetration, then your idea of modern is circa 1918.

Zachowon · May 10, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
If your idea of 'modern warfare' asks for a main infantry rifle with a twenty round magazine, whose chief advantages over the existing suite of arms are increased range and penetration, then your idea of modern is circa 1918.

We will be fighting countries that use body armor. we want to make sure we penetrate it. We want to be able to make the engagement ranges greater to make it harder for the enemy to hit back.
The US Army is planning to make any engagement easier for us....
I know you don't think so, but we are planning to fight either China or Russia

Aaron Fox · May 11, 2021

@DocSolarisReich, that is sadly no longer the case. We've had body armor that tells intermediate rounds where to stuff it (to the point that only head and limb shots are viable points of attack instead of torso shots) and that has proliferated to the point that even podunk insurrectionist groups are getting them in surprising quantity and quality.

Captain X · May 11, 2021

Really? Where can I get one?

Aaron Fox · May 11, 2021

Captain X said:
Really? Where can I get one?

From what I understand, anyone in the body armor market really, although some are more practical than others. I should know because I have to help my dad get into his body armor every day he goes to work. While plates/armor that tell intermediate rounds where to stuff it isn't completely accessible, it has been a worrying trend for COIN operations. It must be noted that Nation-States, on the other hand, had this sort of armor for decades (especially Russia with its willingness to use Titanium for submarine hulls and body armor/helmets).

DocSolarisReich · May 11, 2021

Aaron Fox said:
@DocSolarisReich, that is sadly no longer the case. We've had body armor that tells intermediate rounds where to stuff it (to the point that only head and limb shots are viable points of attack instead of torso shots) and that has proliferated to the point that even podunk insurrectionist groups are getting them in surprising quantity and quality.

That's the big army propaganda to justify the whole pants program. This doesn't mean it's true anymore than it means Saddam actually had any nukes. And *even if true* this doesn't justify the pants program. No one is wearing full ceramic plate harness. And even if they were, ceramic plates break down after being shot. Shoot them again is a perfectly viable tactic. As well, a torso trauma plate does do a blessed thing against fragmentation, overpressure, incendiaries, or fifty cal.

Infantry small arms are not the only weapon in the fight, nor even the most important wound producing weapon on the battlefield.

Zachowon · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
That's the big army propaganda to justify the whole pants program. This doesn't mean it's true anymore than it means Saddam actually had any nukes. And *even if true* this doesn't justify the pants program. No one is wearing full ceramic plate harness. And even if they were, ceramic plates break down after being shot. Shoot them again is a perfectly viable tactic. As well, a torso trauma plate does do a blessed thing against fragmentation, overpressure, incendiaries, or fifty cal.

Infantry small arms are not the only weapon in the fight, nor even the most important wound producing weapon on the battlefield.

You do know that the military is going for closer combat engaments or at least underground in tunnels and bunkers where one cant have a 50 everywhere right?
The Army is going after a different doctrine then it has in the past. 5.56 is no longer as viable as it used to be. Especially against a near peer enemy.

The Army is also replacing the M249 and is looking to replace the M240B with larger rounds in each. the M249 replacement will have same as the NGSW and the idea for the M240 is .303.
The army is going for more power in lighter weight

DocSolarisReich · May 11, 2021

Zachowon said:
You do know that the military is going for closer combat engaments or at least underground in tunnels and bunkers where one cant have a 50 everywhere right?
The Army is going after a different doctrine then it has in the past. 5.56 is no longer as viable as it used to be. Especially against a near peer enemy.

The Army is also replacing the M249 and is looking to replace the M240B with larger rounds in each. the M249 replacement will have same as the NGSW and the idea for the M240 is .303.
The army is going for more power in lighter weight

Stop drinking the cool aide mate. If we get a fancy new ballistic computer optic out of this program, at least it will be something gained.

stephen the barbarian · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
Infantry small arms are not the only weapon in the fight, nor even the most important wound producing weapon on the battlefield.

yeah, i hate it when people pull out that line. it makes it sound like small arms are completely immaterial to war.

Zachowon · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
Stop drinking the cool aide mate. If we get a fancy new ballistic computer optic out of this program, at least it will be something gained.

You do know the Army is changing how they train, or has started to heavily change it right?
We are no longer COIN focused, even in AIT.
We are training for Peer to Peer.

Im not drinking the koolaid. I am looking at what is actually going on in the world and knowing how effective what the Army is looking for.

We wo;; just have to wait and see how this goes.

DocSolarisReich · May 11, 2021

stephen the barbarian said:
yeah, i hate it when people pull out that line. it makes it sound like small arms are completely immaterial to war.

My dude, I am a trained small arms and towed weapons repairer, I know exactly what small arms can and cannot do. Infantry is the queen of battle and Artillery is the King. And we all know what Kings do to Queens. For the all the talk about 'muh overmatch' and 'that Russki body armour tho' this longer range more powah fad is a combination of gravel bellies pushing muh point target precision fires and literally fighting the last (ongoing) war. We have a particular need for counter long range ambush capabilities in Afghanistan where the favored small unit tactic of the Taliban resistance forces is a long range ambush using DHsK 12.7 and KPV 14.5mm heavy machine guns. We don't need ranges longer than 300 meters to fight conventional maneuver wars against peer opponents.

Zachowon · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
My dude, I am a trained small arms and towed weapons repairer, I know exactly what small arms can and cannot do. Infantry is the queen of battle and Artillery is the King. And we all know what Kings do to Queens. For the all the talk about 'muh overmatch' and 'that Russki body armour tho' this longer range more powah fad is a combination of gravel bellies pushing muh point target precision fires and literally fighting the last (ongoing) war. We have a particular need for counter long range ambush capabilities in Afghanistan where the favored small unit tactic of the Taliban resistance forces is a long range ambush using DHsK 12.7 and KPV 14.5mm heavy machine guns. We don't need ranges longer than 300 meters to fight conventional maneuver wars against peer opponents.

Artillery can't also always be counted on as the constant moving battlefield or counter artillery can be a threat.

I know what it looks like at the higher levels.
Artillery is only King if everything allows it.
Artillery isn't always available. Infantry is.

DocSolarisReich · May 11, 2021

Zachowon said:
Artillery can't also always be counted on as the constant moving battlefield or counter artillery can be a threat.

I know what it looks like at the higher levels.
Artillery is only King if everything allows it.
Artillery isn't always available. Infantry is.

Literally what? Please stop proving your ignorance before real cannon cockers see it and descent on thee.

Zachowon · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
Literally what? Please stop proving your ignorance before real cannon cockers see it and descent on thee.

Uh...
Artillery has tk have clear airspace in order to fire.
It has to be given the go ahead by the division they are apart of.
There is a lot of it at the level that it all goes on at...
I know. I worked at Div level.

DocSolarisReich · May 11, 2021

Zachowon said:
Uh...
Artillery has tk have clear airspace in order to fire.
It has to be given the go ahead by the division they are apart of.
There is a lot of it at the level that it all goes on at...
I know. I worked at Div level.

Nondiv arty is a thing my man.

Marduk · May 11, 2021

One thing to consider is that US military will need years to switch over main rifle and ammo, train out everyone, switch the ordnance stores and so on.
5.56 with new AP rounds can still deal with any widely used body armor, but body armor is improving with materials tech more than ammo. And 5.56 is too small to cheat and switch to SLAP if problems happen. Could be a "just in case" move.
Also lets be realistic, whether a near-peer conflict happens, or even more so if it doesn't, US government is still going to mess around in some third world shithole wars in the near future, and the extra range will be useful there.

Zachowon · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
Nondiv arty is a thing my man.

It is, but even then. It still has to clear things with the Div in charge of them to make sure airspace is clear.
Depending in ammunition used as well. It also is a pain to relocate and have set up and ready and have things in range if things were to move quick during a battle.

Dude, I have worked with Artillery guys from enlisted to officers.
It isn't as King as they make it out to be. Especially in force on force.

Marduk said:
One thing to consider is that US military will need years to switch over main rifle and ammo, train out everyone, switch the ordnance stores and so on.
5.56 with new AP rounds can still deal with any widely used body armor, but body armor is improving with materials tech more than ammo. And 5.56 is too small to cheat and switch to SLAP if problems happen. Could be a "just in case" move.
Also lets be realistic, whether a near-peer conflict happens, or even more so if it doesn't, US government is still going to mess around in some third world shithole wars in the near future, and the extra range will be useful there.

They are doing with it what they did with the JLTV
Issue it to thier line units, 82nd, 1st Cav, etc etc and slowly give it to everyone.
That way those that will use it most have it and everyone else slowly gets it when they need to get issued it.

DocSolarisReich · May 11, 2021

Zachowon said:
It is, but even then. It still has to clear things with the Div in charge of them to make sure airspace is clear.
Depending in ammunition used as well. It also is a pain to relocate and have set up and ready and have things in range if things were to move quick during a battle.

Dude, I have worked with Artillery guys from enlisted to officers.
It isn't as King as they make it out to be. Especially in force on force.

As if we do not have hundred of years of experience on how to conduct an artillery battle. It's actually the one thing that the US Army is actually proficient at, since we still cling to the outdated firepower and attrition centric French model of war.

But Artillery IS still the king, ESPECIALLY in peer to peer conflicts. Massed artillery is the deciding factor of most army group engagements, unless an armored breakthrough can be achieved. The fact that we are too friendly fire averse to let arty fire freely because our precious flyboys might get a booboo is itself an example of how we do not have the stones to actually fight a peer adversary that can actually shoot back.

And the irony of the NextGen let's fucking goooooo wheraboo criticizing artillery for having bulky ammunition that is difficult logistically is too fucking rich. Because that's exactly what NextGen advocates are asking for; bulkier ammunition for small arms.

Marduk · May 11, 2021

DocSolarisReich said:
As if we do not have hundred of years of experience on how to conduct an artillery battle. It's actually the one thing that the US Army is actually proficient at, since we still cling to the outdated firepower and attrition centric French model of war.

But Artillery IS still the king, ESPECIALLY in peer to peer conflicts. Massed artillery is the deciding factor of most army group engagements, unless an armored breakthrough can be achieved. The fact that we are too friendly fire averse to let arty fire freely because our precious flyboys might get a booboo is itself an example of how we do not have the stones to actually fight a peer adversary that can actually shoot back.

Yet US Army doesn't have that much artillery when compared to Russia or China.

Ukraine is a great demonstration that the old maxim of "airpower and artillery destroy ground, armor takes ground, infantry holds ground" still holds. You usually need all of these 3 tools to properly fight a war, period. All 3 were used generously there.

DocSolarisReich said:
And the irony of the NextGen let's fucking goooooo wheraboo criticizing artillery for having bulky ammunition that is difficult logistically is too fucking rich. Because that's exactly what NextGen advocates are asking for; bulkier ammunition for small arms.

That argument can get turned on you - in grand scheme of army logistics, small arms ammo, slightly bulkier or less, is a rounding error when compared to arty ammo.

NGSW and other Military Rifle R&D

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