Nazis and Homosexuality

Abhorsen said:
If by political reasons you mean that nazis hated gays, and it's political because they were in charge, sure. Otherwise this is completely wrong. They banned all gay clubs, rounded up everybody they could, and sent the gays to camps, where the SS would use the pink triangles for target practice. These were politically unaligned gays who were just there for being gay, along with more gays included under 'asocials'.


First, analyzing the source of your information to see if they are lying or not is pretty important. By your logic we should believe CNN about Trump being racist, or Hamas about the holocaust, because the source doesn't matter. It turns out it does matter. You had a person who is incredibly, incredibly biased, so much so that he's tried to get gays killed for being gay, and you are just blindly trusting his opinion on gays. It's the height of stupidity, blindness, and naivety.

Meanwhile, the facts you cited are wrong, selectively applied, or combined with logic fallacies:

Gustaf Gründgens (not whatever the hell you spelt) was an actor, not chief of state (so here's something that's just wrong), though he was gay and the Nazis did use him as an actor. He, like a couple of other exceptions in a variety of important and convenient roles, was spared (cherrypicking data). Arno Smitz, for example, was such a good soldier (3 Iron Crosses) that despite being half-Jewish he was allowed to stay in the Army. Emil Maurice, who was Jewish, was also the #2 soldier in the SS behind Hitler, and declared an honorary Aryan. Erhard Milch was half jewish, and convicted for war crimes against Jews. But anecdotes such as these in no way prove that parts of the holocaust didn't happen, as that's a logical fallacy.

These are exceptions though, and not the rule. Other than a few exceptions, if one was jewish or gay, and it was known by Nazis, they were sent to the camps.


This isn't true either. You are just parroting what an bigot wrote in a book, then blindly trusting it. In fact, what the book does is interpret what many at the time considered normal manly bromance into romance. What really happened was bromance, some gays trying to convince themselves they weren't by joining up with the most masculine thing there was (proving that one is manly, and thus not gay, is a common reason gays join the military, see Conduct Unbecoming: Gays and Lesbians in the U.S. Military by Randy Shilts). There's a whole book about it that isn't a ball of lies (actually, it is quite good) called Stormtrooper Families: Homosexuality and Community in the Early Nazi Movement, by Andrew Wackerfuss.


But a 100,000 gays were arrested for being gay, and about 50,000 convicted. Again, you are cherrypicking information to suit your narrative. But I'm also not sure how this proves your point? Gays are really, really good at hiding. We have a shitton of practice, and mostly look like everybody else. The ones they could catch were prosecuted, with many sent to camps, and 15-5k died because they were gay (if we are just talking number of gays killed, regardless of reason, then it'd be about 5-10% of the total holocaust, as it's not like Jews were magically not gay. The 5-15k figure is about people sent to camps for being gay). So again, we have demonstrated that the holocaust (by which I mean the mass killings of civilian Nazis did), included about 5-15k gays who were killed for being gay.
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You still do not learn to read.
1.SA was purged only becouse of politic reason.

2.Gustaf Grundgens was head of state theatre of Reich,you made him head of state.And Source matter only if it is commies - becouse they lied really about anything.
Authors of Pink Swastika are jews,not commies - are you antysemite ? Becouse they must follow their religion - Old Testament actually is against sodomites.Jahwe Himself burned them in Sodoma,after all.
And people of Uganda,as protestant must be against homosex,too.

3.That was not bromance,but return of Sparta - where people must have kids with woman to create new soldiers,but all love was for another man.
And if you think,that Spartans was not homosex,then you are questioning reality.
Those arrested was becouse they refused to produce next generation of german warriors,not becous they were homosex.
 
ATP said:
You still do not learn to read.
1.SA was purged only becouse of politic reason.
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So? That's not my point. The Nazis killed gays who weren't in the SA as well. The ones in the SA were the exception, not the rule.

ATP said:
2.Gustaf Grundgens was head of state theatre of Reich,you made him head of state.
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Oh, I read this as Head of State, in the Reich theater. It's hard to read what you post because your grammar and spelling are shit. I'd apologize because this isn't your first language, but you are denying the holocaust so I don't give a shit what you feel.

ATP said:
And Source matter only if it is commies - becouse they lied really about anything.
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If only commies lie, do you believe that Hamas tells the truth about the holocaust then? How about the KKK?

No, it turns out that many sources are suspect, not just commie ones. Commies don't have a monopoly on lying bullshit.

ATP said:
Authors of Pink Swastika are jews,not commies
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This is objectively wrong. Only one of the authors is a Jew, the other is protestant (Scott Lively, who tried to murder gays in Uganda). And disagreeing with a Jew doesn't make you anti-semetic.

ATP said:
Becouse they must follow their religion - Old Testament actually is against sodomites.Jahwe Himself burned them in Sodoma,after all.
And people of Uganda,as protestant must be against homosex,too.
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Why the hell does them following a religion excuse murder? Osama Bin Laden was 'just following his religion'. So was ISIS, That crazy ax murderer who said God told him to kill, etc. None of these are valid excuses. And make no mistake, sentencing someone to die for being gay is murder, I don't care if it is legal or not. Scott Lively is an attempted murderer.

ATP said:
3.That was not bromance,but return of Sparta - where people must have kids with woman to create new soldiers,but all love was for another man.
And if you think,that Spartans was not homosex,then you are questioning reality.
Those arrested was becouse they refused to produce next generation of german warriors,not becous they were homosex.
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This is crap. There were multiple prosecutions and executions of SS soldiers for being gay, the few ways they argued out of it was saying that they were straight, and showing they had children. The SA itself was purged of any gay elements post the night of long knives as well as a reaction to Rohm.
 
ATP said:
You still do not learn to read.
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I could say the same for you.

1.SA was purged only becouse of politic reason.
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You stated this before and he rebutted it. Counter his actual arguments if you want us to go through the effort of parsing your sentences.

Since he replied to everything, I'll focus on a few salient points.


And Source matter only if it is commies - becouse they lied really about anything.
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.....uh, no. No, it doesn't. Sources matter on all topics. If a notoriously anti-GLBT figure noted for promoting a "Death to all Gays" law writes a book declaring the Nazis were gay, then the question of "is this fellow following a legitimate line of historical inquirity and not being a raging douchenozzle bigot" is a bit of an important question to ask.

Authors of Pink Swastika are jews,not commies - are you antysemite ?
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Strawman fallacy ahoy. Also a bit of ad hominem too, I think.

Becouse they must follow their religion - Old Testament actually is against sodomites.Jahwe Himself burned them in Sodoma,after all.
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God burned Sodom and Gomorrah because they were assholes who violated guest-right privileges and attacked travelers and visitors to their cities.

And people of Uganda,as protestant must be against homosex,too.
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There's a difference between "I don't approve of your lifestyle choices" and "DEATH TO THE GAYS!!!" And frankly it's not very Christian to talk about murdering people for sin since the entire point of Christianity is rooted in the idea that everybody sins.

3.That was not bromance,but return of Sparta - where people must have kids with woman to create new soldiers,but all love was for another man.
And if you think,that Spartans was not homosex,then you are questioning reality.
Those arrested was becouse they refused to produce next generation of german warriors,not becous they were homosex.
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He never said Spartans weren't homosexual. You are literally ignoring what he actually said and going off on tangents based on what I presume is some unquantified mixture of poor reading comprehension, dogged refusal to accept facts that undermine your arguments, and an animus toward anyone who calls out your poor arguments.

Actually engage with the arguments he's making if you want us to take you seriously.
 
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Abhorsen said:
So? That's not my point. The Nazis killed gays who weren't in the SA as well. The ones in the SA were the exception, not the rule.


Oh, I read this as Head of State, in the Reich theater. It's hard to read what you post because your grammar and spelling are shit. I'd apologize because this isn't your first language, but you are denying the holocaust so I don't give a shit what you feel.


If only commies lie, do you believe that Hamas tells the truth about the holocaust then? How about the KKK?

No, it turns out that many sources are suspect, not just commie ones. Commies don't have a monopoly on lying bullshit.


This is objectively wrong. Only one of the authors is a Jew, the other is protestant (Scott Lively, who tried to murder gays in Uganda). And disagreeing with a Jew doesn't make you anti-semetic.


Why the hell does them following a religion excuse murder? Osama Bin Laden was 'just following his religion'. So was ISIS, That crazy ax murderer who said God told him to kill, etc. None of these are valid excuses. And make no mistake, sentencing someone to die for being gay is murder, I don't care if it is legal or not. Scott Lively is an attempted murderer.


This is crap. There were multiple prosecutions and executions of SS soldiers for being gay, the few ways they argued out of it was saying that they were straight, and showing they had children. The SA itself was purged of any gay elements post the night of long knives as well as a reaction to Rohm.
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Entire nazi/transgender thing is out of topic,so i would not reply you next time.Now:
1..German killed homosex who do not agree to produce new soldiers with german woman,those who did so was safe and could have boyfriends.
In other worlds,they died not for being homosex,but not being good cogs in german state machine.

2.Poor soul,holocaust was genocide of jews and gypsies,not killing homosexuals - so i denying nothing here.

3.Everybody sometimes lie - but only commies lied practically always,even when it had no sense at all.So that is why only their statesment should be rejected on the spot.Others,even islamists,sometimes could be right.

4.If Uganda is protestant country,then they should follow Old Testament.Which means killing homosexuals.And no,i do not say that it is good - only that protestants and jews could do that.

5.You still do not undarstandt text.If islam say that killing infidel/homosexual is good,then muslim could do that following their religion.
I never said,that this is good.If some muslim come to Poland to kill me for being infidel,then l would undarstandt his reasons,but still fight him.
Now,do you undarstandt?

6.Those SS man survived becouse they provided children for Germany - and as long as they did so,they could be homosexuals.
 
ATP said:
Entire nazi/transgender thing is out of topic,so i would not reply you next time.
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I'm sure he's devastated that you won't be talking to him anymore. Absolutely devastated. :rolleyes:

Now:
1..German killed homosex who do not agree to produce new soldiers with german woman,those who did so was safe and could have boyfriends.
In other worlds,they died not for being homosex,but not being good cogs in german state machine.
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Prove this assertion with sources (beyond an anti-GLBT hit piece from the 90s written by a bigoted zealot that's been torn into repeatedly by historians), since the sources known to historians generally show that the Nazis were anti-homosexual and threw known homosexuals into concentration camps. The presence of a few exceptions in the hierarchy does not disprove this, since hypocrisy tends to happen in any regime, and what we know now about people might not have been known or accepted then.

2.Poor soul,holocaust was genocide of jews and gypsies,not killing homosexuals - so i denying nothing here.
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Homosexuals were kept and murdered in the concentration camp. They did not die by the numbers of Jews and Gypsies and Slavs, but they were still subjected to that hellish existence and usually a grim fate, so they have most definitely earned their place on the list of victims of the Nazi Holocaust.

3.Everybody sometimes lie - but only commies lied practically always,even when it had no sense at all.So that is why only their statesment should be rejected on the spot.Others,even islamists,sometimes could be right.
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That's why you investigate the source and what it claims instead of just deciding you're going to accept it at face value.

4.If Uganda is protestant country,then they should follow Old Testament.Which means killing homosexuals.And no,i do not say that it is good - only that protestants and jews could do that.
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Generally speaking, Christians kind of pick and choose what to follow from the Old Testament and what not to. It's just that they choose to continue persecuting - or in extreme examples killing - homosexuals, but not the people eating shellfish or children disrespecting parents or those who wear garments of mixed types of cloth. I won't comment on Judaism save that Israel doesn't seem to be killing homosexuals either.

I'm also perplexed and a little disturbed by this continued defense of murdering people for being homosexual, all to distract from arguments about your poor taste in source material for your arguments.

5.You still do not undarstandt text.If islam say that killing infidel/homosexual is good,then muslim could do that following their religion.
I never said,that this is good.If some muslim come to Poland to kill me for being infidel,then l would undarstandt his reasons,but still fight him.
Now,do you undarstandt?
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Some of us believe in higher standards, apparently.

6.Those SS man survived becouse they provided children for Germany - and as long as they did so,they could be homosexuals.
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Or they were very good at hiding (which lots of gay men and women had to do over the years) and you have yet to provide a good argument to back this assertion as something more than your personal imaginings. So, to put it bluntly... when you say things like this, I don't believe you, and you are not succeeding in convincing me, and thus you are failing in this discussion. And accusing people of "not reading what I say" when you go off on tangents about Spartans and such makes me even less-inclined to listen to you.

Actually engage with the discussion and give us sources beyond Pink Swastika, or sources that back up the claims about "the Nazis were pro-homosexual", or find another avenue of argument.
 
ATP said:
Entire nazi/transgender thing is out of topic,so i would not reply you next time.Now:
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So this is not how you quit an argument you are losing. If you don't want to respond, then stop responding. Also, now this is on a relevant thread anyway.
ATP said:
1..German killed homosex who do not agree to produce new soldiers with german woman,those who did so was safe and could have boyfriends.
In other worlds,they died not for being homosex,but not being good cogs in german state machine.
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Also not true at all. Gays who had kids could plead that they were straight, and that would sometimes work. Other gays in concentration camps, after having horrific experiments performed on them (for example, implanting artificial male sex glands in gay prisoners) would claim that they became straight to get out of Dachau and other death camps. But if they thought you were gay, even if you had kids, you were screwed, as many married bisexuals and gays with children were still sent to concentration camps, and some killed (though they did have a higher survival rate than the rest of the gays).

ATP said:
2.Poor soul,holocaust was genocide of jews and gypsies,not killing homosexuals - so i denying nothing here.
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You are arguing a stupid technicality here. It really depends on which historian you ask. But generally, the people who were killed in concentration camps are considered part of the holocaust, and given that Gays who were arrested for being gay were killed in the camps, they generally count.

But regardless of this, the gays were mass murdered by the Nazis for being gay as part of their killing of undesirables.

ATP said:
3.Everybody sometimes lie - but only commies lied practically always,even when it had no sense at all.So that is why only their statesment should be rejected on the spot.Others,even islamists,sometimes could be right.
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If someone is clearly biased, you shouldn't trust them. The author here is clearly biased as he tried to have gays murdered by a government, so it would make sense he'd lie and say that the Nazis didn't do this, otherwise calling him a Nazi is one of the few times it wouldn't be complete hyperbole.

ATP said:
4.If Uganda is protestant country,then they should follow Old Testament.Which means killing homosexuals.And no,i do not say that it is good - only that protestants and jews could do that.
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No, it doesn't. Killing people for being gay is wrong. KIlling people for being a different religion is also wrong. And since we are on the topic, Nazis killing Jews, by your logic, is A-Okay, because that's their culture. The stupidity would be mindboggling, but you have already lowered my expectations enough.

ATP said:
5.You still do not undarstandt text.If islam say that killing infidel/homosexual is good,then muslim could do that following their religion.
I never said,that this is good.If some muslim come to Poland to kill me for being infidel,then l would undarstandt his reasons,but still fight him.
Now,do you undarstandt?
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No, this still isn't okay. This is cultural relativism, where we just blindly accept whatever someone says is moral. This is bullshit. If you burn a widow alive in India, you are a murderer, regardless of the fact it's culturally acceptable. Iran killing dissidents is also wrong, regardless of culture. So if a Protestant (or any other religion/culture) kills a gay for being gay, that's murder, and that's wrong.

To make this perfectly clear: I don't give a shit what culture or religion you have: killing someone because they are gay is wrong.

ATP said:
6.Those SS man survived becouse they provided children for Germany - and as long as they did so,they could be homosexuals.
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Simply not true. Some gay SS men survived because they had children. Others were killed anyway. They would use their children (and their manliness, and Aryan-ness) to try to prove they were straight, and some succeeded, and some failed (and then were executed/imprisoned).
 
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Big Steve said:
Actually engage with the discussion and give us sources beyond Pink Swastika, or sources that back up the claims about "the Nazis were pro-homosexual", or find another avenue of argument.
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The key fact here is Paragraph 175 of the Strafgesetzbuch für das Deutsche Reich, an anti-sodomy law which dated back to the founding of the German Empire. Interestingly, the preceding Prussian kingdom had assigned a medical and philosophical panel to research a scientific basis for this legislation (due to de facto peer pressure from France and Bavaria which had eliminated criminal penalties for consensual sexual acts). The panel concluded that they were unable to give any scientific basis for this law. However, Otto von Bismarck decided to ignore the finding of the panel and his draft penal law for the North German Confederation nonetheless retained almost word-for-word the Prussian anti-sodomy law as Paragraph 175, declaring that the lack of a scientific basis was irrelevant and that it was justified by "public opinion".

The Prussian law remained in effect without change for the entire period of the German Empire, and continued into the Weimar Republic. Contrary to what several posters have implied about the Weimar Republic being a "depraved liberal regime", efforts by social reformers to repeal Paragraph 175 were entirely unsuccessful, although efforts by social conservatives to expand its scope and to harshen the penalties were also unsuccessful until the rise of the Nazis.

The Nazi government of 1935 amended Paragraph 175 as the social conservatives desired, converting it from a misdemeanor subject to six months imprisonment to a felony subject to five years, and more importantly vastly expanding the scope to criminalize not just sexual contact, but all behavior that "objectively offended the general sense of shame" or that "intention was present to excite sexual desire in one of the two men, or a third". In practice, this meant that anyone accused of homosexuality was automatically guilty, since the subjective opinion of the accuser that the accused had "intention to excite sexual desire" was sufficient to create the crime. This expanded definition caused a tenfold increase in the number of annual convictions under Paragraph 175, out of which only half were the result of police investigation; forty percent were private accusations by individuals, and the remaining ten percent were private accusations by institutions.

In addition to the changes in the actual laws, the Nazis later granted the Gestapo broad discretion to place anyone suspected of being gay into indefinite "preventative detention" in the concentration camps even if they had been acquitted of violating Paragraph 175, or upon completing their sentence in the normal prison system. Out of approximately 10,000 pink triangle prisoners who were placed in such detention, only forty percent survived the concentration camps -- only to *remain* imprisoned in the camps by the Allies until they could be transferred to prisons.

The post-war government of West Germany subsequently voted to retain the Nazi version of Paragraph 175 rather than reverting to the original version, and their administrative policies were actually *even harsher* than those of the Nazis, as gays were declared to be "habitual offenders" and therefore automatically re-convicted in absentia every time their sentence was complete, effectively converting a five-year imprisonment by law into lifetime imprisonment.
 
ShadowArxxy said:
The key fact here is Paragraph 175 of the Strafgesetzbuch für das Deutsche Reich, an anti-sodomy law which dated back to the founding of the German Empire. Interestingly, the preceding Prussian kingdom had assigned a medical and philosophical panel to research a scientific basis for this legislation (due to de facto peer pressure from France and Bavaria which had eliminated criminal penalties for consensual sexual acts). The panel concluded that they were unable to give any scientific basis for this law. However, Otto von Bismarck decided to ignore the finding of the panel and his draft penal law for the North German Confederation nonetheless retained almost word-for-word the Prussian anti-sodomy law as Paragraph 175, declaring that the lack of a scientific basis was irrelevant and that it was justified by "public opinion".

The Prussian law remained in effect without change for the entire period of the German Empire, and continued into the Weimar Republic. Contrary to what several posters have implied about the Weimar Republic being a "depraved liberal regime", efforts by social reformers to repeal Paragraph 175 were entirely unsuccessful, although efforts by social conservatives to expand its scope and to harshen the penalties were also unsuccessful until the rise of the Nazis.

The Nazi government of 1935 amended Paragraph 175 as the social conservatives desired, converting it from a misdemeanor subject to six months imprisonment to a felony subject to five years, and more importantly vastly expanding the scope to criminalize not just sexual contact, but all behavior that "objectively offended the general sense of shame" or that "intention was present to excite sexual desire in one of the two men, or a third". In practice, this meant that anyone accused of homosexuality was automatically guilty, since the subjective opinion of the accuser that the accused had "intention to excite sexual desire" was sufficient to create the crime. This expanded definition caused a tenfold increase in the number of annual convictions under Paragraph 175, out of which only half were the result of police investigation; forty percent were private accusations by individuals, and the remaining ten percent were private accusations by institutions.

In addition to the changes in the actual laws, the Nazis later granted the Gestapo broad discretion to place anyone suspected of being gay into indefinite "preventative detention" in the concentration camps even if they had been acquitted of violating Paragraph 175, or upon completing their sentence in the normal prison system. Out of approximately 10,000 pink triangle prisoners who were placed in such detention, only forty percent survived the concentration camps -- only to *remain* imprisoned in the camps by the Allies until they could be transferred to prisons.

The post-war government of West Germany subsequently voted to retain the Nazi version of Paragraph 175 rather than reverting to the original version, and their administrative policies were actually *even harsher* than those of the Nazis, as gays were declared to be "habitual offenders" and therefore automatically re-convicted in absentia every time their sentence was complete, effectively converting a five-year imprisonment by law into lifetime imprisonment.
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You forget about how NSDAP treated Law.In Prussia Law was Law,and everybody must abide it.If they wanted do X to Y,they need law for that.
/at least in Europe - they genocided Herero in Africa against their own laws,but it was normal for Europe in those days/

In Hitler Garmany Law was will of Hitler and his cronies - that is why Goering could save many jews in Luftwaffe ,becouse he decided who is jew.And could do that as planned successor of Hitler.

That is why ,in homosex case,those regarded as good manly homosex could made careers,when those regarded as weak was killed.Not becouse they were homosex,but becouse they were wrong kind of homosex.

Which is why there were no holocaust of homosex,but jews,gypsies,slaws - becouse there were no good kind of jews&others in german eyes,but they have their own good kind of homosex.

P.S if you reject authors of Pink swastika becouse one supported death penalty in Uganda,then you must reject every source when even one author supported abortion and/or euthanasia.Becouse killing children and eldery is murder,too.
 
I think that this is a very strange discussion topic.

Yes, the Nazis were anti-gay, but there were still some gay Nazis and persecuting gays wasn't that high on their list of priorities. Ernst Röhm was killed, along with the other Brown Shirts, though I don't think that being gay had much to do with that, but rather that he was a rival to Hitler and the other Nazi leadership. Interestingly, lesbians weren't as disliked as gay men, but that was actually the case in a number of places historically.
 
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Spartan303 said:
Pretty sure Homosexuals were treated like dirt every bit as much as those considered social outcasts by the Nazis. Which was anyone not like them.
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Per Rudiger Lautmann's research, the death rate of gays in the concentration camps was as high as 60%, which would actually be the highest rate of any demographic group that was "only" held in the concentration camps as opposed to the extermination camps. This was due to the exceptional degree of cruelty inflicted on gay prisoners in the camps, which is well-documented in survivor accounts.
 
Spartan303 said:
Pretty sure Homosexuals were treated like dirt every bit as much as those considered social outcasts by the Nazis. Which was anyone not like them.
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Part of them.Those who NSDAP considered good could still made career being homosexuals.Which was not possible for jews or slavic people - they could made career only if they were considered as pure germans,and forget about their roots.

Those who betrayed their people for germans ,but not were considered as germans,were still murdered once they stop be useful.

And that is problem with some people here - becouse part of homosexual society was prosecuted,they want to belive,that all was as prosecuted as jews,gypsies or poles.Which is not true.

P.S German attitude to homosexual was like their attitude to astrology - there were good astrologists/homosexuals and bad ones,and Hitler decided who is who.
 
ATP said:
Part of them.Those who NSDAP considered good could still made career being homosexuals.Which was not possible for jews or slavic people - they could made career only if they were considered as pure germans,and forget about their roots.
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No, they couldn't. This is total horseshit, again. You have no evidence for this at all, except a book from the most biased source one can imagine.

ATP said:
Those who betrayed their people for germans ,but not were considered as germans,were still murdered once they stop be useful.

And that is problem with some people here - becouse part of homosexual society was prosecuted,they want to belive,that all was as prosecuted as jews,gypsies or poles.Which is not true.

P.S German attitude to homosexual was like their attitude to astrology - there were good astrologists/homosexuals and bad ones,and Hitler decided who is who.
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Still bullshit. Again, gays were rounded up by the gestapo for being gay, then threatened into exposing other gays. All the gays just went back into hiding, and since gays are good at hiding, they survived at a higher rate. But the gays who were found and put in camps? They were killed at a much higher rate.
 
Abhorsen said:
No, they couldn't. This is total horseshit, again. You have no evidence for this at all, except a book from the most biased source one can imagine.


Still bullshit. Again, gays were rounded up by the gestapo for being gay, then threatened into exposing other gays. All the gays just went back into hiding, and since gays are good at hiding, they survived at a higher rate. But the gays who were found and put in camps? They were killed at a much higher rate.
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It is another thread,so i would answer- once.

1.All evidence are in pink swastika,and if you decided to name it as biased becouse one of author was jew/protestant who supported death penalty in Uganda,then you must name as biased Bible,too.
Jahwe -Who is Bible ultimate author - decided to burn Sodoma becouse people there were homosexuals.According to your logic,we could not rely on anything from Bible,then.

2.Those who were considered as good homosexuals,like Gustaw Grundgens,were making careers still being homosexuals.
And camps - Joan Ringelheim from Washington Holocaust Museum proved,that even there they were represent among kapo in much higher rate.

So,facts show that germans had two categories of homosexuals - one good who made career,and second bad which indeed was prosecuted.So,you could not say that german prosecuted them as a whole,like they did with jews,gypsies and slavic people.
You could deny reality,you are adult after all - but i would not answer to your fairy tales then.
 
ATP said:
1.All evidence are in pink swastika,and if you decided to name it as biased becouse one of author was jew/protestant who supported death penalty in Uganda,then you must name as biased Bible,too.
Jahwe -Who is Bible ultimate author - decided to burn Sodoma becouse people there were homosexuals.According to your logic,we could not rely on anything from Bible,then.
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First, no, Sodom was burned because they raped guests (or at least tried to). Second, also no. The Torah was allegedly written by Moses according to some biblical scholars, while others cite various people writing in the 5th or 6th century BC. I don't even believe in God, so I don't see why I would discard it for that.

Third, you seem to be arguing (again) that killing gays for being gay as a good thing, or at least an okay thing. Here's a question for you: is it ever moral for anyone to kill anyone else just because they are gay or because they have consensual gay sex with an adult? Because you seem to back that position repeatedly.

ATP said:
2.Those who were considered as good homosexuals,like Gustaw Grundgens,were making careers still being homosexuals.
And camps - Joan Ringelheim from Washington Holocaust Museum proved,that even there they were represent among kapo in much higher rate.
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Again, Gustaf Gründgens (learn to spell) was the exception, not the rule, as he was so useful to the Nazi party. There were also some rare Jews who were protected, as I already pointed out. And even he could not be out publicly, but just that him being gay was a known secret. Also, I already blew this point up, pointing out that a few Jews were spared as well, but the holocaust obviously happened:
Abhorsen said:
Arno Smitz, for example, was such a good soldier (3 Iron Crosses) that despite being half-Jewish he was allowed to stay in the Army. Emil Maurice, who was Jewish, was also the #2 soldier in the SS behind Hitler, and declared an honorary Aryan. Erhard Milch was half jewish, and convicted for war crimes against Jews. But anecdotes such as these in no way prove that parts of the holocaust didn't happen, as that's a logical fallacy.
Click to expand...

You are randomly citing Joan Ringelheim, who estimated the number of gays in camps for being gay at around 5-15k. But they were killed at a much higher rate, gays are better at hiding (it's easier to hide in a figurative closet than a literal one), and this utterly ignores the numbers who were locked up in regular jails (approximately 50-100k), who were kept in prison past the Allied liberation.

ATP said:
So,facts show that germans had two categories of homosexuals - one good who made career,and second bad which indeed was prosecuted.So,you could not say that german prosecuted them as a whole,like they did with jews,gypsies and slavic people.
You could deny reality,you are adult after all - but i would not answer to your fairy tales then.
Click to expand...
Again, the only one with fairy tales here is you, with you idiotic holocaust denial. You have no evidence, you keep going back to previously debunked points, and your only source is an attempted mass murderer who's maybe a little sensitive about how close his desired policies align with Nazis ones.
 
Abhorsen said:
First, no, Sodom was burned because they raped guests (or at least tried to). Second, also no. The Torah was allegedly written by Moses according to some biblical scholars, while others cite various people writing in the 5th or 6th century BC. I don't even believe in God, so I don't see why I would discard it for that.

Third, you seem to be arguing (again) that killing gays for being gay as a good thing, or at least an okay thing. Here's a question for you: is it ever moral for anyone to kill anyone else just because they are gay or because they have consensual gay sex with an adult? Because you seem to back that position repeatedly.


Again, Gustaf Gründgens (learn to spell) was the exception, not the rule, as he was so useful to the Nazi party. There were also some rare Jews who were protected, as I already pointed out. And even he could not be out publicly, but just that him being gay was a known secret. Also, I already blew this point up, pointing out that a few Jews were spared as well, but the holocaust obviously happened:


You are randomly citing Joan Ringelheim, who estimated the number of gays in camps for being gay at around 5-15k. But they were killed at a much higher rate, gays are better at hiding (it's easier to hide in a figurative closet than a literal one), and this utterly ignores the numbers who were locked up in regular jails (approximately 50-100k), who were kept in prison past the Allied liberation.


Again, the only one with fairy tales here is you, with you idiotic holocaust denial. You have no evidence, you keep going back to previously debunked points, and your only source is an attempted mass murderer who's maybe a little sensitive about how close his desired policies align with Nazis ones.
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You said nothing knew,but you are funny,so i would answer.
1.Jahwe burned Sodom for people there being homosexual - you are fighting with reality,not me.
2.You are not using your brain,so i made it clear: Aztecs should kill and eat people,becouse that was part of their religion.
Did it mean,that i said that killing and eating people is good thing ? no,i said that Aztec who belive their gods should do it.

The same about protestants ,jews and homosexuals.Becouse Old testament advocate death for them,they should do the same.
Or change religion.
As long as you belong to religion X which says that you should do Y,you must do Y.
Now,do you undarstandt ?

3.All proofs you need are in Pink Swastica,and if you deny them becouse one of author belive in Old Testament,that you are silly.
And unlogical,becouse you must deny now all books written by people beliving in Jahwe.

P.S If you really do not belive in God,then you could not say that Sodom was destroyed for breaking quest law - becouse All info about Sodom are taking about fire from heaven which destroyed it.
Since people then could not do that,it was either work of God,or entire story is fake.

If you were smart,you would argue that Sodome never existed and entire story was made by bad jewish priests to hurt good homosexual jews.It,at least,would be logical.
 
ATP said:
1.Jahwe burned Sodom for people there being homosexual - you are fighting with reality,not me.
Click to expand...
Again, not actually true. They weren't killed (despite being gay and all) up until they violated guest rights and rape began. Otherwise, god should have struck them down beforehand.

ATP said:
2.You are not using your brain,so i made it clear: Aztecs should kill and eat people,becouse that was part of their religion.
Did it mean,that i said that killing and eating people is good thing ? no,i said that Aztec who belive their gods should do it.
Click to expand...
But you are using this as an excuse. Should or should not doesn't matter. What matters is morality or immorality.

Either a) it isn't moral, and so anyone who does this is incredibly immoral, and thus Scott Lively is evil for supporting the murder of gays, or b) you claim that they are in some way justified for doing this.

ATP said:
The same about protestants ,jews and homosexuals.Becouse Old testament advocate death for them,they should do the same.
Or change religion.
As long as you belong to religion X which says that you should do Y,you must do Y.
Now,do you undarstandt ?
Click to expand...
No, this is still bullshit. Having a religion in no way excuses murder.

ATP said:
3.All proofs you need are in Pink Swastica,and if you deny them becouse one of author belive in Old Testament,that you are silly.
And unlogical,becouse you must deny now all books written by people beliving in Jahwe.
Click to expand...
First, if someone actually starts following their religion word for word, in a manner that includes slavery or murdering gays or some other horrific thing, then yes, one should be suspicious of anything they write justifying that, because they are trying to justify atrocities.

Take Islam. Some muslims use their religion as an excuse to murder people. Then, when those same muslims write about how the holocaust never happened, justifying their murder of Jews, I don't trust them on that. But if a different Muslim wrote another work, on a different topic, I'd have no reason to doubt that. Note that the first Muslim's religion doesn't actually enter into my opinion about whether to trust them; all I care about are the person's actions and whether they are a murderer and support genocide. Similarly, Scott Lively's religion is irrelevant when considering whether to trust him about the holocaust, it's just that he's attempted mass murder of gays that makes me not trust him when it comes to whether gays.

So by your attempt at logic, it's not that I have to deny books by people believing in the Abrahamic god, it's that I have to deny books by mass murderers.

But let's play pretend for a second, and imagine that Scott Lively wasn't murderous scum, and never went to Uganda. You'd still have little evidence. You've presented no evidence to prove your point other than citing a book and Gustaf Grundgens. I've already dealt with the Gustaf Grundgens point, and the book you cite is considered horseshit by a number of different historians, the US Holocaust Museum, and a number of solid historians. For example, Andrew Wackerfuss, who wrote a whole book on homosexuality in the Stormtroopers, calls this book out as being full of crap. Here's a whole online book debunking the Pink Swastika page by page, called the Annotated Pink Swastika.

The Pink Swastika claims that Goering is gay because he liked exotic clothes and wore makeup. Wow, such evidence. Nevermind that he had a wife and child. Nevermind that there's no evidence he slept with a man. Likes makeup=gay, according to the Pink Swastika.

Overall, the book is shit, the author is evil, and you're an idiot.
 
Abhorsen said:
Again, not actually true. They weren't killed (despite being gay and all) up until they violated guest rights and rape began. Otherwise, god should have struck them down beforehand.


But you are using this as an excuse. Should or should not doesn't matter. What matters is morality or immorality.

Either a) it isn't moral, and so anyone who does this is incredibly immoral, and thus Scott Lively is evil for supporting the murder of gays, or b) you claim that they are in some way justified for doing this.


No, this is still bullshit. Having a religion in no way excuses murder.


First, if someone actually starts following their religion word for word, in a manner that includes slavery or murdering gays or some other horrific thing, then yes, one should be suspicious of anything they write justifying that, because they are trying to justify atrocities.

Take Islam. Some muslims use their religion as an excuse to murder people. Then, when those same muslims write about how the holocaust never happened, justifying their murder of Jews, I don't trust them on that. But if a different Muslim wrote another work, on a different topic, I'd have no reason to doubt that. Note that the first Muslim's religion doesn't actually enter into my opinion about whether to trust them; all I care about are the person's actions and whether they are a murderer and support genocide. Similarly, Scott Lively's religion is irrelevant when considering whether to trust him about the holocaust, it's just that he's attempted mass murder of gays that makes me not trust him when it comes to whether gays.

So by your attempt at logic, it's not that I have to deny books by people believing in the Abrahamic god, it's that I have to deny books by mass murderers.

But let's play pretend for a second, and imagine that Scott Lively wasn't murderous scum, and never went to Uganda. You'd still have little evidence. You've presented no evidence to prove your point other than citing a book and Gustaf Grundgens. I've already dealt with the Gustaf Grundgens point, and the book you cite is considered horseshit by a number of different historians, the US Holocaust Museum, and a number of solid historians. For example, Andrew Wackerfuss, who wrote a whole book on homosexuality in the Stormtroopers, calls this book out as being full of crap. Here's a whole online book debunking the Pink Swastika page by page, called the Annotated Pink Swastika.

The Pink Swastika claims that Goering is gay because he liked exotic clothes and wore makeup. Wow, such evidence. Nevermind that he had a wife and child. Nevermind that there's no evidence he slept with a man. Likes makeup=gay, according to the Pink Swastika.

Overall, the book is shit, the author is evil, and you're an idiot.
Click to expand...

You either do not use your brain,or you are troll.
But in case ,that you simly do not undarstandt written text,i educate you once more:

Following religion is always moral for people who belive in their religion.For Aztec people who would not tortured and killed children for Tlaloc would be immoral
For leftist in our times people who do not let kill children/abortion/,eldery/euthanasia/ are immoral,too.
And yes,marxism is religion,and people who belive in it should advocate genocide,they are no true marxist if they do not do that.

And since we do not knew for sure which morality is real till we meet God,all we could do here is demand logic from peple - if you belive in religion X,you must follow religion X or change it.
Thus protestants and jews must advocate death penalty for homosexuals,becouse that is what Jahwe did in Sodom.If they do no like that,they should change religion.
Just like leftist must demand killing children and eldery people.

If you still think that i advocate death penalty for anybody there,then you fall in logic on elementar school level.

I belive in morality from my religion - but i do not other to do the same.You should do the same.You are free to follow your leftist religion,but protestants and jews have the same rights.
 
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