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What If? 15th Century Central Europe gets ISoT-ed to Planetos?
- Thread starter Aldarion
- Start date
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest.The Citadel: So Spake Martin - On Ethnicities
www.westeros.org
What exactly do they have from those guys?
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Being nomads, riding horses andusing bows from horseback? I can't really find much else. It is clear that Martin did absolutely no research on actual steppe nomads - Dothraki are stereotypes of Huns and Mongols rather than being inspired by historical counterparts.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Not very much, I think.
Being horse nomads? And likely the fact that they tend to not use armour that much (though Amerindians did in fact use armour, at least occasionally).
To be fair, Martin mostly looked to 15th century conflicts for inspirations... which is tail-end of feudalism, and armies in 15th century could be massive; I wrote about it here:
Army of John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus
Become a Patron! Recruitment and organization John Hunyadi Both Hunyadis utilized army which was a combination of mercenaries and feudal banderia (banners – Exercitus Banderialis). Occassionally th…
militaryfantasy.home.blog
But the very reason why armies could be so massive was that feudalism was kinda dying.
Actually, as I have written in the post I linked on my blog, armies by the time of 15th century were very much not medieval. Matthias had a standing, fully professional army (Black Army), and the rest of his army was raised through banderial system - which basically consisted of nobles maintaining armies of their own and then leasing them to the king.
Main problem is what you wrote, he is a foreigner and an infidel.
Navarro
Well-known member
It all got moved to western Essos.
Just a random thought. I think it was mentioned here that the world of ASOIAF is missing on one or more of the components for creating gunpowder or its equivalent.
Does Central Europe actuallyl have any of those natural resources needed for making gunpowder within its territory?
It might not cause a short term military revolution but it would be a strategic resource if they did have access to it.
Does Central Europe actuallyl have any of those natural resources needed for making gunpowder within its territory?
It might not cause a short term military revolution but it would be a strategic resource if they did have access to it.
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
I suspect that central Europe has pee in it, yes.
That would help with the nitrates but what about the other components? Is it the charcoal that's implied as missing or the sulfur? (Waving aside any alien space bats about those somehow not existing)
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
All three of the components of gunpowder are absolutely essential for human life. Charcoal is basically pure carbon which is kinda required for nigh-everything the human body does. Sulfur is less common in the human body than carbon but a required component of some of the essential proteins we need for our cells to function. As for saltpeter, well there's a very good reason it's present in all our urine.
That said I have no particular problem with gunpowder not working in a specific setting as a base measure. I wish he'd picked something besides "Elements that are absolutely required for a human body to function don't exist" but it's a fantasy, humans may not even be made of atoms in GoT and the wonky physics I can live with as a central conceit. I find the behavior of people somehow less believable, as @Shipmaster Sane points out, the most noble of Westerosi are basically average by our standards and their average are our evil bastards. It jars me to see it, especially when people claim it's "realistic."
Yes like I inferred before I get that. I appreciate the whimsy but it's getting kind of obtuse.
I was wondering if there were any actual accessible reserves of the components needed to make gunpowder within Central Europe beyond going full Doomsday Prepper and making it out of your own bodily waste. You know like reserves that can be mined or whatever.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
The standard issue way to get saltpeter is actually stables. During the gunpowder age, there would be a nice foot-thick-or-more layer of sand underneath the horse stables so that their urine would pour through the boards and soak the sand. After a few months, large crystals of saltpeter would begin to grow right out of the sand. Alternately the manure could be buried mixed with straw and watered, and again eventually crystals of nitre would emerge.Yes like I inferred before I get that. I appreciate the whimsy but it's getting kind of obtuse.
I was wondering if there were any actual accessible reserves of the components needed to make gunpowder within Central Europe beyond going full Doomsday Prepper and making it out of your own bodily waste. You know like reserves that can be mined or whatever.
Charcoal can be made from any piece of wood. Hardwood is a little better quality.
Pure sulfur is pretty common in the ground and was known to even the ancient Egyptians since it's so easy to obtain. It's the 5th most common element in Earth's crust. It used to be mined, though today mining elemental sulfur deposits is a sucker's bet because vast quantities of it are produced as waste from processing natural gas and oil. It's abundant anywhere there's a hot spring or volcano and produces large crystals with a typical "rotten egg" smell so finding and mining said areas would be easy.
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
Well, thinking about this logically, we see people pee, we see burned wood, so sulfur must not exist.
Yes, hence the question about whether such deposits existing in Central Europe. Bear Ribs provided almost exactly the answer I was looking for though.
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
In a pinch cant you render sulfur from eggs?Yes, hence the question about whether such deposits existing in Central Europe. Bear Ribs provided almost exactly the answer I was looking for though.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
You can if you know what you're doing, but doing so on a scale enough to produce decent amounts of gunpowder would be hideously expensive. Peasants need those eggs as a food source.
Also I suspect @Husky_Khan was coming at it from the perspective of an Isekai who might not know the chemistry of removing sulfur from eggs. It's distinctive smell and the fact that it's elementally pure in land and hot spring deposits would be easier for a person with no serious background in said technology to find and harvest.
I just remembered,that during 13th years war with Teutonic knights,Poland was allied with cities ruled by teutonic knights, biggest of them - Gdańsk and Elbląg - form 30 ships strong fleet which destroyed order fleet/44 ships/ in 1463,and basically win war for Poland by cutting order from any reinforcment sent by sea.
If Poland had that cities,we would have fleet,if not - there would be only land forces.
If Poland had that cities,we would have fleet,if not - there would be only land forces.