The Value of Life and the Coronavirus

[Deleted member 88]

This isn't a news thread of the pandemic, as there is already a thread for that.

I came across an interesting article from the Federalist

How Cowardice And Class Privilege Shift Support For Lockdowns

All worthwhile activities always involve risk of death—to oneself and others. That is no excuse for assuming a fetal position and failing to live.

thefederalist.com

In essence, it argues we are being bombarded with the idea that to live, one must cease living.

I won't comment on whether or not I agree, but I think this motivates a lot of the anti lockdown protesters even if they can't articulate it very well.

Being home bound and not doing anything-work, play, or socialization is for most people, not a life worth enjoying(again this isn't necessarily my sentiment by experience). And many of the right wing folks I have read-have said, this sort of enforced home imprisonment or time out, is not life and is just...not desirable.

Life involves risk, and everyone dies. And no one lives forever.

Are we living in a time which values simply the continuation of life over this life having value? I would say on this part, yes. We live in very prosperous times, and death so feared it is ignored and not talked about at all.

Or as my dad says, there are worse things than dying.

Thoughts, feel free to discuss!

Note: If this should be in another subforum, any mod is free to move it.

 

[Bear Ribs]

On the one hand I agree with the sentiment that there are worse things than dying. On the other hand what we're actually looking at is a month or two of lock down to save tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives. It's not like this is a permanent solution.

If you get in a car accident and wind up in surgery, you're going to need to spend a few weeks in the hospital recovering, that doesn't mean your life is over and you should just hop right out of bed and trying to run down the hallway because to remain in the bed is to quit living and merely continue life. Life's going to go on once you have healed.

 

[Floridaman]

On the one hand I agree with the sentiment that there are worse things than dying. On the other hand what we're actually looking at is a month or two of lock down to save tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives. It's not like this is a permanent solution.

If you get in a car accident and wind up in surgery, you're going to need to spend a few weeks in the hospital recovering, that doesn't mean your life is over and you should just hop right out of bed and trying to run down the hallway because to remain in the bed is to quit living and merely continue life. Life's going to go on once you have healed.

The problem is we are already at Great Depression levels of economic damage, going further will only make things worse. At some point the economic harm is worse than a disease. Remember the economic damage is followed by other damage once people can’t get food or feel that the current system is useless, after all look at what world the depression produced.

U.S. Job Losses Hit Great Depression-Era Mark

Over 26 million Americans have registered for unemployment since the China Virus hit the nation.

patriotpost.us

 

[Bear Ribs]

Yeah but it's not quite the same. The Great Depression was a sort of gridlock in the system and there was mass unemployment because there were no jobs available, because nobody could afford to pay workers, because nobody had any money, because nobody had workers to make them money.

The current situation, in contrast, is a temporary halt. Everybody's on unemployment at home but a supermajority are going to have jobs waiting for them in May or June, the same jobs they got furloughed from to go into quarantine. People dead of the virus, on the other hand, have decidedly fewer work prospects.

 

[Terthna]

The problem is we are already at Great Depression levels of economic damage, going further will only make things worse. At some point the economic harm is worse than a disease. Remember the economic damage is followed by other damage once people can’t get food or feel that the current system is useless, after all look at what world the depression produced.

U.S. Job Losses Hit Great Depression-Era Mark

Over 26 million Americans have registered for unemployment since the China Virus hit the nation.

patriotpost.us

Thing is, economic damage will happen regardless. Take the American meatpacking industry for example; many of the plants are in states that have no social distancing guidelines, let alone lockdown orders. However, many of those plants are having to shut down because their workers got the virus, which ultimately means that roughly 10-15% of the country’s beef processing and 25% of its pork processing is currently offline. This is disastrous, economically speaking.

In short, you may not like what the lockdowns are doing to the economy, but it's arguable that opening back up won't improve the situation one iota. Most of those who want to go back to work don't believe that they're in any danger, but that's a very fragile mindset to have; so what's your plan if they're convinced otherwise? Force them to go back to work?

We might have only one shot at this, so if we screw it up, if we tell people to go back to work before we're ready for the inevitable resurgence of cases, there's a chance that the economy will be even worse off than if we had waited. So tighten your belt; because things are going to get worse.

 

[Floridaman]

Yeah but it's not quite the same. The Great Depression was a sort of gridlock in the system and there was mass unemployment because there were no jobs available, because nobody could afford to pay workers, because nobody had any money, because nobody had workers to make them money.

The current situation, in contrast, is a temporary halt. Everybody's on unemployment at home but a supermajority are going to have jobs waiting for them in May or June, the same jobs they got furloughed from to go into quarantine. People dead of the virus, on the other hand, have decidedly fewer work prospects.

As someone who works in the financial sector , I wish I shared your optimism. The dataI have seem is far less optimistic, a lot of businesses small ones especially will not be returning, the PPP loans are not sufficient to keep a business running, those loans are for payroll to avoid even more people going on unemployment, this means there won’t be the capital to reopen the businesses when this all is said and done.
edit: since there are now articles about this, I can at least share this, the key issue is these small businesses are the basis of the economy, if they die it doesn’t matter if big companies are initially able to survive this.

Coronavirus Pandemic Forces Small Businesses to Close for Good

Small businesses, particularly mom-and-pop restaurants, have been hit hard during the COVID-19 pandemic and many of those have closed their doors for good.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Bear Ribs]

As someone who works in the financial sector , I wish I shared your optimism. The dataI have seem is far less optimistic, a lot of businesses small ones especially will not be returning, the PPP loans are not sufficient to keep a business running, those loans are for payroll to avoid even more people going on unemployment, this means there won’t be the capital to reopen the businesses when this all is said and done.
edit: since there are now articles about this, I can at least share this, the key issue is these small businesses are the basis of the economy, if they die it doesn’t matter if big companies are initially able to survive this.

Coronavirus Pandemic Forces Small Businesses to Close for Good

Small businesses, particularly mom-and-pop restaurants, have been hit hard during the COVID-19 pandemic and many of those have closed their doors for good.

www.newsweek.com

Mom and Pop restaurants have a crazy high closure rate anyway. Not the 90% rate thrown around as a fake statistic but a recent study by Cornell University revealed that around 26% fail in year one, and 19% more fail in year two (and of the survivors 14% die in year three). So limiting a discussion of the economic data to restaurants is somewhat suspicious to me, how many of those restaurants were circling the drain anyway?

That's not to say the economy isn't taking damage, it is for sure. Money's being lost and profits are failing to materialize. However, basing the doom-and-gloom predictions on restaurants closing, or on unemployment when a significant chunk of the unemployed are going to be going back to work, isn't telling the real story.

 

[Floridaman]

Mom and Pop restaurants have a crazy high closure rate anyway. Not the 90% rate thrown around as a fake statistic but a recent study by Cornell University revealed that around 26% fail in year one, and 19% more fail in year two (and of the survivors 14% die in year three). So limiting a discussion of the economic data to restaurants is somewhat suspicious to me, how many of those restaurants were circling the drain anyway?

That's not to say the economy isn't taking damage, it is for sure. Money's being lost and profits are failing to materialize. However, basing the doom-and-gloom predictions on restaurants closing, or on unemployment when a significant chunk of the unemployed are going to be going back to work, isn't telling the real story.

The reason I am giving the data I did is because it is public, I can’t discuss other matters. Second you are assuming that people will be returning to work without any evidence, the economy doesn’t have an on/off switch, when you shut it down a lot of parts can’t just come back on.

 

[Deleted member]

In the big 19th century panics (some of which were worse than the Great Depression in objective financial terms), the economy quickly came back. Americans were masters of reinvention. The country continued to develop and grow more prosperous. The objective should be to emulate that kind of recovery. Yes, tens of millions of people will lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands of businesses will permanently close; oh well, we're Americans, tens of millions of people will find new jobs and hundreds of thousands of new businesses will open. The critical question is if we will have an administration that lets that natural recovery happen, or we will have an administration which artificially prolongs the crisis to further its ideological objectives.